UCMs

Lagmatic · Post by **Lagmatic** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:02 pm

Dill is a seasoning. Also a type of pickle.

I don't wanna be a dill hole either. No talking to Lucky I guess!

Lucky Strike · Post by **Lucky Strike** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:13 pm

Sassy wrote:Most of us are intelligent enough to tell when someone is afk and letting Eltank or some other program play the game for them.

Sassy, my dear, you are exactly and completely wrong. The ONLY difference between someone ACM (attended combat macro) and UCM is whether they are able to reply to direct tells from an AC admin. Unless you have some phychic ability that I'm not aware of I don't believe you can tell whether I'm sitting in the chair in front of my computer or sound asleep far far away.

In fact, as far as my in-game character is concerned there absolutely positively is no difference. With the recent addition of my "no reply to the monarchy" rule you won't even be able to tell by whether I speak to you or not. Literally, there is no difference whatsoever. Therefore, I'm going to have to disagree with you that you can tell the difference.

Pee-Wee wrote:It is for this reason that the CoC bans ALL macroing (UCM or not) in populated dungeons.

{Editors Note: He is referring to the Last Dynasty CoC not the AC CoC}

I've seen this before and I was hoping that its really a bad dream. If all macroing is truly not allowed inside a populated dungeon (I'm assuming tusker pits and tusker holding are considered populated) then the High Counsel needs to start removing people from the monarchy starting with several members of the high counsel. Presumably after we kick them out we'll replace them with several new people we'll have to remove for ACM. We'll keep doing that until the monarchy has about 3 people left.

If you look at the list of people who have engaged in this thread you'll notice that many (dare I say most?) of them ACM in "populated" dungeons on a regular basis.

If this truly is the rule perhaps those of us that ACM (and maybe some that UCM) need to consider moving to a new monarchy. My gut feeling is that the entire OH Chain, Food Chain and the casual chain (most of those characters probably do not ACM, but they are owned by people who do) will leave the monarchy. If you do the math, that'll leave a tiny tiny fraction of the current monarchy under Panzerfaust.

Hopefully everyone will come to the boards and let me know which monarchy they joined when they were removed from Last Dynasty for ACM. I look forward to seeing you all there.

Nauscicaa · Post by **Nauscicaa** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:16 pm

If a few people break the rules it does not mean we need to change the rools but we need to 'punish' the perpetrators.

Lucky Strike · Post by **Lucky Strike** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:24 pm

Nauscicaa wrote:If a few people break the rules it does not mean we need to change the rools but we need to 'punish' the perpetrators.

Agreed. And if everyone breaks the rules then the rules suck.

Nauscicaa · Post by **Nauscicaa** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:58 pm

And if everyone breaks the rules then the rules suck.

No if everyone breaks the rules everyone sucks and not the rules

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:02 pm

The rules only suck to those who break them, regardless of the numbers.

And fortunately, "Everyone" does not break the rules, thereby avoiding the Lucky Strike Suckage rule.

Lagmatic · Post by **Lagmatic** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:03 pm

I believe the original "You can't Macro Dungeons" rule was from before UCM was banned. The idea was, if people were going to UCM, they had to do it outside where it wouldn't bother live players.

LD bans UCM just like AC does. If you're actually at the keyboard, I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

Lucky, you seem to be kind of upset about this whole thing. What is it that you're worried about? Being reported incorrectly? Even if some random person reports you, you won't get banned, because when the admins come they don't just ban you, they'll talk to you, you'll talk back, and they'll just file it as a false report.

No need for any paranoia here.

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:08 pm

BTW: we do have tank admins in the clan. So, we can definetly tell if someone is macroing attended or otherwise.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:14 pm

/e is very happy for all her dereth life she doesn't and didn't. Now I have one less thing to worry about

Oof · Post by **Oof** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:20 pm

This is one of those examples of following the letter of the law vs. following the intent of the law. I may have said this before, but even if I did, it bears repeating: A little common sense goes a long way.

The game CoC says UCM is banned, punishable by a permanent ban from the game. That being said, their INTENT for the ban is to stop people from inhibiting the game play of other players. Ken Karl stated in a post some time back that they knew they would not stop all UCM activity nor were they interested in doing so. He went on to say their goal was to stop or minimize as much as possible UCM'ing in areas that cause problems for other players. He also stated that he basically didn't care if someone UCMs in an area away where it wouldn't bother anyone. Essentially, if you want to UCM and do so in such a way so that no one reports you, Turbine/Microsoft isn't going to make a big deal about it.

The clan's CoC says much the same thing, for much the same reasons, with one exception. Our CoC specifically prohibits combat macroing in dungeons, unattended or attended. Again, the INTENT for this is to avoid impacting other player's gameplay in a negative way. Panzer has stately clearly that since you can't really control which creatures are targeted when you are macroing, combat macros aren't allowed in dungeons. True, you can set the range to 5 on tank and minimize a lot of that, but sometimes people forget to do that. In a group of people as large as LD is, it simply won't work to say "you can't macro in a dungeon if... but you CAN macro in a dungeon if you... If our CoC stated you can combat macro in a dungeon as long as it doesn't bother anyone else, we would probably be discussing what is meant by bothering someone else forever. So the rule is no combat macroing, not because to do so would automatically hurt someone else's gameplay, but because people sometimes tend to be stupid. Therefore the rules have to be blanket rules in order to cover the bases.

If you are hunting in a mixed dungeon with some melee friends and run tank in a vuln only, you aren't combat macroing because you aren't killing, therefore you can't be stealing someone else's kills. If you are in a dungeon alone and choose to combat macro, no one is there to see you, or to be affected by your gameplay; therefore, you aren't impacting anyone else's gameplay and the INTENT of the rule is still being honored. Of course, if you are UCM, you can't stop as soon as someone else enters the dungeon, and are consequently liable to be reported to a game admin for UCM activity. If you are in a dungeon only LD members and they are in your fellow, you won't negatively impact of people's gameplay, etc., etc.

This is my take on the rules, certainly not an official statement from the high council, since I aren't one.

But folks, if it's a choice of getting hung up on semantics versus trying to take a practical approach to honoring the intent of our rules, I would choose a practicial approach every time. It isn't quite a don't ask, don't tell policy; it is more a don't do anything to cause other people grief and you'll be okay policy.

P.S. If people were to leave because they didn't like the CoC, I for one would still stay in LD.

Sassy · Post by **Sassy** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:23 pm

I for one can testify that we have tank admins in the clan and they can tell. There is one particular tank admin that likes to @tell me *info* for fun. The auto response to that tell in my case is *buff only*. This tells the admin what I'm using tank for.

Phade · Post by **Phade** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:56 pm

I see it much the same way that Oof sees it.

If your not in anyone's way, in a dungeon or in the middle of no where then no one can report you, aka no problem.

and yes, the eltank admins can see if you are UCM'ing easily, and even where you are.

However I believe they have a strict code as to what they need to do before logging someone off, so no they won't just run around randomly booting folks for fun
(though that would be fun

)

Podunkmer · Post by **Podunkmer** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:57 pm

Oof wrote:If you are hunting in a mixed dungeon with some melee friends and run tank in a vuln only, you aren't combat macroing because you aren't killing, therefore you can't be stealing someone else's kills.

Not according to the AC Admins. A few weeks ago a guy was banned for running an Imperil bot in one of the main rooms of Martinate Holding.

As for the "you can control which monsters the macro targets" I don't see how that differs any bit inside a dungeon than it does outside. ACM'ing outside of OPBSD is no different than ACMing in Tusker Tunnels or Tusker Holding or BSD. It's a well-trafficked area, and you're just as likely to vuln a monster that someone has already engaged, or intends to.

Similarly, if you run out to BFE (that's Bum Freakin' Egypt) way out 30 klicks SE of Ayan Baqur, you are almost as likely to run into another player as if you are parked in a side room of Plated Rifts or Phyntos Menace or any number of other dungeons where you can count the number of people who pass through during the average week on just one hand.

Additionally, most of the ACMs I've encountered in dungeons are MORE LIKELY to have an auto-fellow going than a non-macroing player, meaning that the macroing characters I have encountered are more often disposed to share their labors with my labors, than some solo-hunter who just came to the dungeon (or the remote outdoor area) for a little solitude.

Am I seeing this issue in too many shades of grey?

Pee-Wee · Post by **Pee-Wee** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:02 pm

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Lucky, I sure hope you read all of this.

You have EVERY right to ACM. If you are ACM, then there is no need to defend yourself or get angry about it.

Those people who are just out there to rat on people are, to put it simply, a pain in the ass. However, this does not detract from there being a valid reason for SOME to report people for macroing (in populated dungeons).

The ban is there for a reason. THINK ABOUT THE REASON.

The only way someone would know if you are macroing, is to see you indiscriminatly vuln/war monsters. Otherwise, your actions are EXACTLY the same as any other mage fighting. It is this indiscriminate killing that is the basis of the LD Ban as well as the AC wide UCM ban.

I, as a melee sure don't like to see my kills being taken away from me by Macroers weather it's from UCM, or ACM. And the "I'm Sorry" bit from ACM'ers get's old after the 3rd or 4th time, and after that, it becomes intentional no matter how you view it.

If you look at the list of people who have engaged in this thread you'll notice that many (dare I say most?) of them ACM in "populated" dungeons on a regular basis.

Sorry, but if you look, the VAST majority who posted up to that point were melee (which are the main foe's of having kills stolen by macroers).

Me = Staff
Sassy = Bow
Znytemare = Bow
Nauscicaa = Axe
Griffmar = Bow
Rathgryn = Bow

(Not sure about the others, but some of them may possibly be melee also).

As I said, if I were to run up to every monster you vulned and started to hit on them, what would you think of me? Even if I DID say "I'm sorry" after every one?? Not very nicely I'm sure. So why should I accept that from anyone else?

To say it does not happen, or, you have never had this happen (while ACM in a populated dungeon), is utter and total Cattle Scat.

Again, we are talking about POPULATED DUNGEONS.

NOBODY want's you to leave, nobody WANT'S anyone to leave. But, if your actions detract from others game play, then, something has to be done. Otherwise, don't call me griefing if I attack every monster you vuln.

UCMers killed themselves, and now ACMers are falling prey to the same fate.

UCMers could have sat out in the middle of nowhere killing all day long and it would have NEVER been a problem. But, we all know, that is NOT what UCMers were doing. Now, ACMers are following the same route.

JUST DO IT WHERE IT'S NOT GOING TO INTERFERE WITH OTHERS GAME PLAY!

Jesus, how plain and simple does it have to get?

Pee-Wee · Post by **Pee-Wee** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:08 pm

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Just one more point.

If you didn't indiscriminatly vuln/war monsters, and you always said "hello" when someone talked to you.....

WHO THE HELL WOULD KNOW YOU WERE MACROING?

I think that sums the whole argument up.