Do you want the OH quota raised a little, or left alone?

Oof · Post by **Oof** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:11 pm

The title is the question.

Do you want the OH quota raised a little, or left alone?

The following is cross posted from thread Compadre started about raising the quota on the OH, but it was starting to get a little off-track from what we are trying to find out.

The only limitation I want put on the discussion in this thread is what the title asks about, raising the quota a little bit or leaving it alone. If you want to suggest any big changes please post those on Compadre's thread. We'll look at those too. What the managers have been talking about is possibly raising the quota enough to absorb the extra XP generated from building loyalty bonuses and raising loyalty, but trying not to actually raise the effort required for meeting quota from what we had to do when we joined.

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Raising the quota for the OH is something we need to look at, with moderation. It's something we've been looking at and talking about among the managers for a while now, but there have been other more pressing matters to take care of.

The OH was created to provide a higher output, more challenging chain environment for those chain members in LD who wanted something more than what the FC offers. While I agree with Thorgrim's and DL's sentiment (assuming I'm "getting it" right) that we don't want to make the OH members live and breathe nothing but chain, Lagmatic made a very good observation when he said, "You're in a CHAIN. You're in the HIGH OUTPUT portion of the CHAIN."

I think the XP currently coming from the OH is pretty good, and very stable. Long-term, it will be hard to beat anywhere on the server. Overall, our loyalty bonus is continuing to build, and people are generally raising their loyalty skill, both of which make more XP automatically.

What we the managers have been talking about, and I'll toss it out here since this thread has been started, is raising the quota by 3 million per week. The jump from 12 million to 15 million will probably barely be noticeable, effort wise, because 3 extra million is something nearly everyone is already doing anyway but it will result in a noticeable increase in the amount received by the time it passes through a few people. The other thing to keep in mind on this is the reason nearly everyone is already exceeding quota by more than 3 million per week is BECAUSE of the increased loyalty bonus and loyalty skill. Raising the quota to 15 million probably represents a lesser effort than we all put out when we first joined the chain at a 12 million quota.

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All feedback is appreciated.

No feedback will be an assumed "do whatever, because it really doesn't matter to me either way."

luang · Post by **luang** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:22 pm

Couldn't care less.

Qaz · Post by **Qaz** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:23 pm

15 mill would be ok as long as it doesnt get moved each week causing people hardships to maintain quota. Heck what we have now seems to cause hardships to some that are in constant upload, fail, and or invalid status.

DL · Post by DL » Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:33 pm

15m is fine with me....however....my concern is.....How long before that quota becomes 18...then 21....then 24...then 27...etc?....and then it becomes a hardship for even those of us who play hard?

I agree with Qaz on the fact we need to start getting TOUGH on those who are constantly in upload, fail, or invalid status. This is supposed to be a much more strict chain portion.....I know we don't want to chain around and move people and we feel everyone deserves another chance...but after hitting the slacker list 1 time..how many chances do you need?..you should not have a second turn hitting that list....especially every 21 days!!!...your second turn in the slacker list should be a move order back to the FC. If you can't cut it...and can't commit to uploading every other day or so and passing EACH week....then you do not belong in the OH. It's not that we need to raise quotas...we need to get tough and remove slackers!

Qaz · Post by **Qaz** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:44 pm

I also think there should be a min loyalty required to be in the OoH Chain as well.....say like 225...that is not unreasonable. And yea I know what you are thinking .....Qaz is a mage.....yea it is alot easier for me to raise mine....right now my base is 291 and to be in this higher based chain anyone should be able to reach at least 225 with some effort. The key here is .....put forth the effort it will payoff.

Oof · Post by **Oof** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:58 pm

DL, I think we need to do both, raise the quota some and also get tougher on people who don't comply. It doesn't matter why someone isn't meeting req's either. We have been way too patient about this; I guess old habits die hard.

Qaz, I think some minimum loyalty standards is something we should look at. I'm not sure about making it an actual requirement though. As long as people are meetin quota, that is the only real measurement tool we have for performance. Most people, once they realize the importance of loyalty, and that it pays dividends day in and day out, will invest the XP into it because they realize they will get a lot more XP back from it in the long run.

My intent is not to raise the quota every week, but yes, I think we should revisit the quota on a regular basis, like maybe every month or two. I'm not saying we will raise the quota; I'm just saying maybe we should run the numbers every month or two and look at how we're doing. For now, the question is strictly 15 million quota, and nothing else.

I think the fairest, easiest way to determine if quota needs raised is to track long term performance in the OH. If the majority of the people are maintaining a comfortable Credit balance regarding quota, then quota probably isn't high enough again. The required quota might become too low for a number of reasons: people raise loyalty, people build loyalty bonus, games changes add to monster's XP, new hunting grounds, etc.

Nothing is static, including membership in the OH. Both life situations and game situations change and people may well decide the FC is a better home for them for a time. If that happens, they are always welcome back in the OH.

Ideally, the quota in the OH should be such that we have to work for it, but not so high that it controls our playing time. I have no idea what that number will work out to be. Will raising quota by 3 million a week be a very easy adjustment for most people? I think so. Is it too much, or too little? I don't know, no one does. I would rather err on the side of being cautious (which I think 3 million is conservative) than to go all out and end up removing us all for failing.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:07 pm

3 mill increments is fine.

Thorgrim

Lagmatic · Post by **Lagmatic** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:09 pm

Raised. I'd go for double.

Compadre · Post by **Compadre** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:07 pm

I'm up for it.

anca · Post by **anca** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:08 pm

I think I can deal with 3 more million

My patron will be happy

Culticon · Post by **Culticon** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:44 pm

15mil is fair

I now I have posted to the extreme side but I am a hardcore player of Ac. Please for give me for my addiction

brotherhawk · Post by **brotherhawk** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:38 pm

I am not in the OH yet but I do meet the requirements and have put my request in.

I would not like to see the quota raised. If the chain loses one person over the quota that is a loss of 12M in passup. That eliminates the the gain of the extra 3M times 4 people.

Are people leaving over having too low a quota or too little XP? If not, is there really a need to up it and risk more headaches.

Trekman · Post by **Trekman** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:50 pm

People who are so proud that they "easily can hunt much much more than 12m" are heartily invited to do so. But that does not give them the right to demand that from everyone else - even in OH.

But the question is not if someone can hunt additional 3m. The question is whether policies and numbers are worth anything to rely on. I understand the need for dynamics and change, but clan/chain policies should have a certain minimal half-life.....those quota discussions come faster than you can be added to the OH anyway.
I once thought that a policy is some sort of treaty - I have to fulfill my duties as acknowledged when joining. But apparently a chain policy is nothing more than a playground for XP addicts and subject to change faster than the chain itself settles.

I mean - despite the good work of our Admins due to the complexity you wait up to several weeks to be placed at the bottom of the OH. Once there you already read that the quota might be raised because some people much higher in the OH cannot get enough free XP ?

Which brings me to what I also read here - that we are in the HIGH OUTPUT part of a CHAIN - in capitals.

I respectfully have to disagree. We are in a clan which happens to have a chain which happens to have 3 different output "regions".
If you are eager to be in a HIGH OUTPUT CHAIN I am sure LSD is more than happy to welcome another victim.

Another aspect, concerning me personally :

I admit that although this is a clan with chains and not vice versa I had some expectations when joining the OH. And those were painfully failed - and a quota even 4x higher than 12m would not have solved it because the reason was my very small movement within the whole chain from FC-top to OH-bottom.

I am even considering to leave OH again. If you enter the OH from somewhere further down the FC you might see an increase in received XP.
But I have to produce twice the quota than before without gaining any more XP than I did before I only switched places with Phade to become the bottom of OH.
To ask me now whether to raise the quota even a tiny bit almost makes me angry.

Sure, two OH people are below me now. But their current numbers fulfill the promotion requirements so I can foresee that they will pass me, leaving me at the end of the OH again.

You might say "just produce more so they cannot pass you" - but that is exactly what I do *not* want to do or I could go to LSD as well.
I just decline the idea that a chain is a competition where I have to parry attacks of my chain-vassal trying to pass me.

If they are entitled to pass me, so be it and kudos to them.
But as long as I fulfill the requirements and pass my 12m quota I should have some benefit from the OH - which I currently definitely don't have.
As long as the "problem of being the bottom of OH" is not solved I do not even consider to vote for a quota raise.

As a sidenote I honestly do not understand how I can get "only" 20-50 mil. per day when my chain-vassal and grand-chain-vassal show >110% in the %quota column. The same 20-50 mil. I got when I was almost at the top of the FC (I even have the impression I got more XP/day back then).
Are those %quota numbers accumulated from back then when they were in FC ?

Kazsam · Post by **Kazsam** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:01 pm

Ummm summer is bad time to raise quota, peeps on hols etc, more to make up, maybe leave it a month then id be up for it

Lagmatic · Post by **Lagmatic** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:42 pm

Trekman wrote:People who are so proud that they "easily can hunt much much more than 12m" are heartily invited to do so. But that does not give them the right to demand that from everyone else - even in OH.

Did somebody demand something? I thought we were democratically discussing it. By participating in the OH, you agree to abide by the OH rules. As we've seen lately, they are subject to change.

Trekman wrote: But the question is not if someone can hunt additional 3m. The question is whether policies and numbers are worth anything to rely on. I understand the need for dynamics and change, but clan/chain policies should have a certain minimal half-life.....those quota discussions come faster than you can be added to the OH anyway.

When was the last time we discussed quota? When the OH was formed I think. Why shouldn't we change for the better if we can?

Trekman wrote: I once thought that a policy is some sort of treaty - I have to fulfill my duties as acknowledged when joining. But apparently a chain policy is nothing more than a playground for XP addicts and subject to change faster than the chain itself settles.

Nobody is asking you to leave the OH, if I recall. Are you saying you couldn't make another 3M or 12M passup? By definition, this is a high output chain segment. If you don't want to do that, say so, but calling people XP addicts is pot, kettle, black.

Trekman wrote: I mean - despite the good work of our Admins due to the complexity you wait up to several weeks to be placed at the bottom of the OH. Once there you already read that the quota might be raised because some people much higher in the OH cannot get enough free XP ?

Yes, it is hard to get into the OH, because the OH is such a desirable place to be. The XP flows well, and the reason it flows well is because we adapted policy to allow the high-producers to flourish. 'some people much higher' is not accurate. Many people have talked about this policy. I'm sure we'll hear from more people later. This thread is only 2 days old.

Trekman wrote: Which brings me to what I also read here - that we are in the HIGH OUTPUT part of a CHAIN - in capitals.

I respectfully have to disagree. We are in a clan which happens to have a chain which happens to have 3 different output "regions".
If you are eager to be in a HIGH OUTPUT CHAIN I am sure LSD is more than happy to welcome another victim.

You are very confused. The OH is the high output portion of the chain. You can't tell people to leave because they want things better. That is as much of a misdirection as telling people who lobby for different laws 'go live in another country!'. Wanting things to be different and better is not the same as not being loyal to LD.

Trekman wrote: Another aspect, concerning me personally :

I admit that although this is a clan with chains and not vice versa I had some expectations when joining the OH. And those were painfully failed - and a quota even 4x higher than 12m would not have solved it because the reason was my very small movement within the whole chain from FC-top to OH-bottom.

I am even considering to leave OH again. If you enter the OH from somewhere further down the FC you might see an increase in received XP.
But I have to produce twice the quota than before without gaining any more XP than I did before I only switched places with Phade to become the bottom of OH.
To ask me now whether to raise the quota even a tiny bit almost makes me angry.

See, this confuses me. You admit that you're not doing as well in OH as you did in FC, but you don't want to improve OH? Right now, there's no stimulus in OH to do anything other than earn the bare minimum XP. Advancement is ....ridiculously difficult. It will literally take years to get to the top of the OH, even if you earn 500M a day.

So why not improve flow through the whole OH, so that we all benefit better? The OH was supposed to be the high output hardcode players. Not a place for 126+s to retire to. Which is mostly what it is now.

Trekman wrote: Sure, two OH people are below me now. But their current numbers fulfill the promotion requirements so I can foresee that they will pass me, leaving me at the end of the OH again.

They work harder, they deserve to pass you, don't they?...

Trekman wrote: You might say "just produce more so they cannot pass you" - but that is exactly what I do *not* want to do or I could go to LSD as well.
I just decline the idea that a chain is a competition where I have to parry attacks of my chain-vassal trying to pass me.

I don't think you should think of it as an attack. These are your friends and clanmates! Shouldn't we all rejoice when they advance? It isn't a competition, really. I know what it feels like to be jumped, having been doing this kind of stuff for a while, and it doesn't feel good to be left behind, but if they earned it, kudos to them.

Trekman wrote: If they are entitled to pass me, so be it and kudos to them.
But as long as I fulfill the requirements and pass my 12m quota I should have some benefit from the OH - which I currently definitely don't have.
As long as the "problem of being the bottom of OH" is not solved I do not even consider to vote for a quota raise.

Trekman the Axeman 178 Success 102.69 % 99.62 % 18 2003-07-18 20:35:33 25,209,117 937,352,054 1,647,210,975 966,242,19

almost a billion, but not a benefit?

Trekman wrote: As a sidenote I honestly do not understand how I can get "only" 20-50 mil. per day when my chain-vassal and grand-chain-vassal show >110% in the %quota column. The same 20-50 mil. I got when I was almost at the top of the FC (I even have the impression I got more XP/day back then).
Are those %quota numbers accumulated from back then when they were in FC ?

If you look at the numbers, the even people far below you help you earn XP.

(1 million xp) (how many step below a vassal passing 1M is)
1000000*.9375
937500.0000 1 (direct vassal)
.*.9375
878906.2500 2 (grand vassal)
.*.9375
823974.6093 3 (great grand vassal)
.*.9375
772476.1962 4 (great great grand vassal)
.*.9375
724196.4339 5 (great great great grand vassal)
.*.9375
678934.1567 6 (you didn't think i was gonna name em all did you?)
.*.9375
636500.7719 7
.*.9375
596719.4736 8
.*.9375
559424.5065 9
.*.9375
524460.4748 10
.*.9375
491681.6951 11
.*.9375
460951.5891 12
.*.9375
432142.1147 13
.*.9375
405133.2325 14
.*.9375
379812.4054 15
.*.9375
356074.1300 16
.*.9375
333819.4968 17
.*.9375
312955.7782 18
.*.9375
293396.0420 19
.*.9375
275058.7893 20
.*.9375
257867.6149 21
.*.9375
241750.8889 22
.*.9375
226641.4583 23
.*.9375
212476.3671 24
.*.9375
199196.5941 25
.*.9375
186746.8069 26
.*.9375
175075.1314 27
.*.9375
164132.9356 28
.*.9375
153874.6271 29
.*.9375
144257.4629 30
.*.9375
135241.3714 31
.*.9375
126788.7856 32
.*.9375
118864.4865 33
.*.9375
111435.4560 34
.*.9375
104470.7400 35
.*.9375
97941.3187 36
.*.9375
91819.9862 37
.*.9375
86081.2370 38
.*.9375
80701.1596 39
.*.9375
75657.3371 40

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