Here is the official Order of Hyssop promotion policy. It will please some people and displease others, like any other policy for a group of people as large as the OH. The policy is listed here. I will make a separate post below explaining the rationale behind the policy. If you don't see a second post by me below this one, you might hold off on any comments/flames/questions, as that post might address most points.
Order of Hyssop Promotion Policy:
If your %quota column is at least 110% AND is at least 5% higher than your patron's %quota column you are eligible to pass your patron. You are eligible for promotion every 42 days. You have to be in the Order of Hyssop at least one reporting period in order to be eligible.
The Order of Hyssop Promotion Policy
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Oof
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The Order of Hyssop Promotion Policy
Last edited by Oof on Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Oof
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If your %quota column is at least 110% AND is at least 5% higher than your patron's %quota column you are eligible to pass your patron. You are eligible for promotion every 42 days. You have to be in the Order of Hyssop at least one reporting period in order to be eligible.
The promotion's rationale broken down: We need something that is as fair as possible to everyone. One of the results of the policy now is that you can only be promoted past your patron, and not move up multiple positions (explained below). The one position move-up is probably the most obvious change in the policy from what was posted before. Another change, even bigger, that may not be as obvious is that your promotion is based on comparing your %quota column to your patron's %quota column now, not to your %vassal column like it was before.
Addressing the "%quota column" part: Before, basing your eligibility for promotion on your %vassal column meant that if you passed up (enough) more XP than your vassal passed up, you were eligible for promotion. That was backwards logic though, since to pass someone, you should be doing better than THEM, not better than your vassal. Now, to be promoted you have to outperform your patron and it doesn't matter what your vassal does.
The 110% and 5% higher part is based on looking at the amount of XP involved to make that happen. We need something that is hard to attain, yet is still reachable. Our very best guess is that 110% and 5% higher than your patron is a good set of numbers to use. This is the answer to where the percentage number came from.
Addressing the "you are eligible to pass your patron." part: The Food Chain's promotion policy has always been based on outperforming your patron, measured in that chain by character levels. (At post 126+, levels no longer dictate where you can swear, therefore levels aren't a good measurement for determining where/when you can move up.) The FC has a minimum limit of passing your patron by three levels in order to be eligible for promotion. One of the results of that policy is that when people get promoted in the FC they usually move up multiple levels. It isn't really designed in order to move them up multiple spots, it is simply the result of the having to move them in order to be able to reswear them in.
In the OH, as soon as you are precentage-wise qualified to move up at the end of a promotion period, you can move, every single time your percentages are high enough. The reason for only moving up past your patron is the only person you have proven you have the ability to pass is your patron. Most people will try to hunt hard enough make quota (or else they get removed from the chain). However, most people will also try to hunt hard enough to keep their vassal from passing them. If we move people up multiple positions, it is very likely that somone will skip ahead of someone else in the chain who is hunting enough to stay ahead of their vassal, and maybe even enough to pass their patron, but they end up getting passed from someone 3 positions below them. If I'm a couple of positions ahead of you in the chain and am working hard to pass my patron, and you skip right ahead of me, it wrecks my loyalty bonus when I had nothing to do with you getting promoted (if we were to promote multiple positions).
Honestly, I expect the single-position promotion to be the emotional hotspot of the promotion policy. It may feel like it's slow, but it is the fairest way to promote for everyone involved. If you go back and look historically at the Food Chain promotions, there were only rarely any promotions. Having the ability to move up every 42 days in the OH can result in a LOT more moves up the chain than we have seen in the past. Instead of having to outlevel by three (old FC) and getting promoted, then taking forever to outlevel like that again, now every 42 days you can move up if you're eligible.
Addressing the eligible for promotion every 42 days. part: Our normal quota reporting period is 21 days. Many of us have been raising loyalty and building our loyalty bonus, and it is starting to show in the average XP the chain receives each day. The 42 days is a compromise between giving people an opportunity for promotion and trying to maintain as much loyalty bonus as possible. When someone is promoted, they will wreck their loyalty bonus, the loyalty bonus of their old patron (who will become their new vassal), and their old vassal (who will become their new grandvassal). At 240 hours of ingame sworn time, it takes a long time to rebuild the bonus, but makes a huge difference in the amount of XP passed up. By having a promotion time set every 42 days, it gives us about a week to get the moves done and then gives everyone a little over two weeks to run tank or robochef or something to keep them logged in somewhere safe for the next couple of weeks in order to rebuild as much loyalty bonus as possible before the next promotion period starts.
If I hunt for 100 million a week, and have a maxed loyalty bonus versus a reset one it means I pass up probably 50 million to my patron instead of 25 - 30 million. Even more important than that, consider this: Say my patron passed HIS patron last time (and we aren't waiting 42 days before promotion again). Now, I didn't get passed, but my loyalty bonus reset anyway because my patron moved. The person under me wasn't affected at all. He is trying to pass me for the next promotion, and I am trying to stay ahead. Both of us hunt for a 100 million. I pass up 29 million (reset loyalty bonus). He passes up 50 million (kept his loyalty bonus). If we don't give some time to rebuild the bonus some, whoever gets reset might continue sliding down the chain.
You have to be in the Order of Hyssop at least one reporting period in order to be eligible. part: This is just to make sure a new insert has a full reporting period in place. It's pretty easy to make more than 110% with only one day in the reporting period. It's a lot harder when you have 21 full days.
The promotion's rationale broken down: We need something that is as fair as possible to everyone. One of the results of the policy now is that you can only be promoted past your patron, and not move up multiple positions (explained below). The one position move-up is probably the most obvious change in the policy from what was posted before. Another change, even bigger, that may not be as obvious is that your promotion is based on comparing your %quota column to your patron's %quota column now, not to your %vassal column like it was before.
Addressing the "%quota column" part: Before, basing your eligibility for promotion on your %vassal column meant that if you passed up (enough) more XP than your vassal passed up, you were eligible for promotion. That was backwards logic though, since to pass someone, you should be doing better than THEM, not better than your vassal. Now, to be promoted you have to outperform your patron and it doesn't matter what your vassal does.
The 110% and 5% higher part is based on looking at the amount of XP involved to make that happen. We need something that is hard to attain, yet is still reachable. Our very best guess is that 110% and 5% higher than your patron is a good set of numbers to use. This is the answer to where the percentage number came from.
Addressing the "you are eligible to pass your patron." part: The Food Chain's promotion policy has always been based on outperforming your patron, measured in that chain by character levels. (At post 126+, levels no longer dictate where you can swear, therefore levels aren't a good measurement for determining where/when you can move up.) The FC has a minimum limit of passing your patron by three levels in order to be eligible for promotion. One of the results of that policy is that when people get promoted in the FC they usually move up multiple levels. It isn't really designed in order to move them up multiple spots, it is simply the result of the having to move them in order to be able to reswear them in.
In the OH, as soon as you are precentage-wise qualified to move up at the end of a promotion period, you can move, every single time your percentages are high enough. The reason for only moving up past your patron is the only person you have proven you have the ability to pass is your patron. Most people will try to hunt hard enough make quota (or else they get removed from the chain). However, most people will also try to hunt hard enough to keep their vassal from passing them. If we move people up multiple positions, it is very likely that somone will skip ahead of someone else in the chain who is hunting enough to stay ahead of their vassal, and maybe even enough to pass their patron, but they end up getting passed from someone 3 positions below them. If I'm a couple of positions ahead of you in the chain and am working hard to pass my patron, and you skip right ahead of me, it wrecks my loyalty bonus when I had nothing to do with you getting promoted (if we were to promote multiple positions).
Honestly, I expect the single-position promotion to be the emotional hotspot of the promotion policy. It may feel like it's slow, but it is the fairest way to promote for everyone involved. If you go back and look historically at the Food Chain promotions, there were only rarely any promotions. Having the ability to move up every 42 days in the OH can result in a LOT more moves up the chain than we have seen in the past. Instead of having to outlevel by three (old FC) and getting promoted, then taking forever to outlevel like that again, now every 42 days you can move up if you're eligible.
Addressing the eligible for promotion every 42 days. part: Our normal quota reporting period is 21 days. Many of us have been raising loyalty and building our loyalty bonus, and it is starting to show in the average XP the chain receives each day. The 42 days is a compromise between giving people an opportunity for promotion and trying to maintain as much loyalty bonus as possible. When someone is promoted, they will wreck their loyalty bonus, the loyalty bonus of their old patron (who will become their new vassal), and their old vassal (who will become their new grandvassal). At 240 hours of ingame sworn time, it takes a long time to rebuild the bonus, but makes a huge difference in the amount of XP passed up. By having a promotion time set every 42 days, it gives us about a week to get the moves done and then gives everyone a little over two weeks to run tank or robochef or something to keep them logged in somewhere safe for the next couple of weeks in order to rebuild as much loyalty bonus as possible before the next promotion period starts.
If I hunt for 100 million a week, and have a maxed loyalty bonus versus a reset one it means I pass up probably 50 million to my patron instead of 25 - 30 million. Even more important than that, consider this: Say my patron passed HIS patron last time (and we aren't waiting 42 days before promotion again). Now, I didn't get passed, but my loyalty bonus reset anyway because my patron moved. The person under me wasn't affected at all. He is trying to pass me for the next promotion, and I am trying to stay ahead. Both of us hunt for a 100 million. I pass up 29 million (reset loyalty bonus). He passes up 50 million (kept his loyalty bonus). If we don't give some time to rebuild the bonus some, whoever gets reset might continue sliding down the chain.
You have to be in the Order of Hyssop at least one reporting period in order to be eligible. part: This is just to make sure a new insert has a full reporting period in place. It's pretty easy to make more than 110% with only one day in the reporting period. It's a lot harder when you have 21 full days.
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acaddict
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ok
There should be an exception for moving more than one spot per 42 days (meaning more than one spot at a time). Yu all did well on this!!! I agree with it, i just hate to see the loyalty bonus getting busted for one measly spot! I would never agree to move up one spot to loose that and i agree that the managers needed to do this to keep our loyalty bonus in tact!
Just suggesting we give more of an insentive to maybe make a % above each member (meaning: each member above....like 5% for each above the 110%) a requirement for moving more than one. We all can see the % the above members are making, there should be a reward for the pushers with less burd to the chain. Just a thought for you all, but i would not ask to be promoted with the current 1 level bump as loyalty bonus would be lost! (pretty much the intention of these criteria
)
Just suggesting we give more of an insentive to maybe make a % above each member (meaning: each member above....like 5% for each above the 110%) a requirement for moving more than one. We all can see the % the above members are making, there should be a reward for the pushers with less burd to the chain. Just a thought for you all, but i would not ask to be promoted with the current 1 level bump as loyalty bonus would be lost! (pretty much the intention of these criteria
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Oof
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Ac, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your suggestion. To see if I understand, lets say the numbers look like this:
Name %quota
Player1 100%
Player2 104%
Player3 110%
Player4 120%
Now, since Player4 meets the promotion criteria of being at least 110% and at least 5% higher than his patron, he can move up as many spots as he can, "costing" 5% per spot that he moves up?
For example, he qualifies to pass his patron under the policy, no question about that. BUT, since he has at least another 5% to cover passing the next person in line too, to move him up an additional spot? In this case, with having earned two additional "5%s of quota", he would earn two additional spots up the chain?
Or are you thinking something else? The example above might work okay. The Main Number One Reason for moving a single spot was not to preserve the loyalty bonus. That's important, but recoverable when it is lost because of swearings. The main reason was to be fair to the grandpatrons out there, and not have them being passed because of something that is out of their control. This way, they can see people coming, and try to hunt enough to keep from being passed, if they choose to do so.
Folks: bottom line, if you have a better suggestion, we are always willing to think about things. Ac, please let me know if this is what you were thinking or if I'm off standing alone way out in left field.
Name %quota
Player1 100%
Player2 104%
Player3 110%
Player4 120%
Now, since Player4 meets the promotion criteria of being at least 110% and at least 5% higher than his patron, he can move up as many spots as he can, "costing" 5% per spot that he moves up?
For example, he qualifies to pass his patron under the policy, no question about that. BUT, since he has at least another 5% to cover passing the next person in line too, to move him up an additional spot? In this case, with having earned two additional "5%s of quota", he would earn two additional spots up the chain?
Or are you thinking something else? The example above might work okay. The Main Number One Reason for moving a single spot was not to preserve the loyalty bonus. That's important, but recoverable when it is lost because of swearings. The main reason was to be fair to the grandpatrons out there, and not have them being passed because of something that is out of their control. This way, they can see people coming, and try to hunt enough to keep from being passed, if they choose to do so.
Folks: bottom line, if you have a better suggestion, we are always willing to think about things. Ac, please let me know if this is what you were thinking or if I'm off standing alone way out in left field.
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Wimp Lo
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I had actually hoped that there might be a rotation from the top of the OH to the bottom. Some sort of systematic change in position in the OH since all are level 126 and all are hitting quota.
I would have come to the OH when it first started but I was the connecting point for the CC to the FC. Now I get in pretty much at the bottom of the OH, which means I will see very little of the benefit of the extra xp that those in the OH are earning. The only way for me to move up is to surpass my patron by 5% and hunt 110 %.
Well, as you all know, tinker spends much more time tinking than hunting. I have always hunted enough to meet quota, but not usually exceed it by a lot. It seems to me that I will be relegated to staying at or near the bottom of the OH for a long time, which means that tinker will not really benefit from the OH.
Since all of us are long time LD members, wouldn't it make more sense to set up a rotation every so often where those at the top move to the bottom and over time move back to the top? Then everyone gets to benefit fairly equally over time from the increased xp created by the OH.
Just my two cents.
Wimp Lo
I would have come to the OH when it first started but I was the connecting point for the CC to the FC. Now I get in pretty much at the bottom of the OH, which means I will see very little of the benefit of the extra xp that those in the OH are earning. The only way for me to move up is to surpass my patron by 5% and hunt 110 %.
Well, as you all know, tinker spends much more time tinking than hunting. I have always hunted enough to meet quota, but not usually exceed it by a lot. It seems to me that I will be relegated to staying at or near the bottom of the OH for a long time, which means that tinker will not really benefit from the OH.
Since all of us are long time LD members, wouldn't it make more sense to set up a rotation every so often where those at the top move to the bottom and over time move back to the top? Then everyone gets to benefit fairly equally over time from the increased xp created by the OH.
Just my two cents.
Wimp Lo
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DL
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I have carefully looked at this and see our managers put a great deal of time and thought into this. It's a very good idea in many ways.....I too am concerned about the break of loyalty bonuses but don't fore see it as a big issue. The biggest issue has been covered by this well thought out plan....that big issue being that NO ONE should be allowed to jump multiple positions. It makes a tremendous amount of sense since multiple jumps would not have given the grand patrons any opportunity to even attempt keeping a % high enough to keep thier position.....also...if this were allowed....there are people who would get jumped over who shouldn't. Also...since the original insertion rule was anyone lv 126+ was to be placed at the bottom at the time of swearing in and never moving up....therefore it makes this a truly unique and well thought out plan.
Yes it only involves 1 move at a time.
Yes you have to be sworn to that person for 42 days.
Yes you have to be @ 110% passup and more than 5% of your patron making it a fair move above your patron.
Yes this only involves a move between you and your patron so it's fair to those who might be a position or 2 higher and want opportunity to hunt the extreme to stop a move.
You know what....this could become very competetive. You know what that means? It means our chain becomes more productive. For those who don't care, they will get pushed towards the bottom but not an instant push as some think it should be. There are many players in our chain who are working hard, very hard, not 24/7 but passing up more than required. Are they all passing up at the rate of our infamous Ac? NO. Will they ever be able to pass at that rate? Not likely? Does it make their contribution less important? No! This plan was not designed to only help a few players move...it was designed with EVERY single player in mind who might or might not want the same opportunity.
Let's give our managers a HUGE round of applause for this truly unique/innovative idea which is fair to anyone in the OH and will in the end benefit everyone not just a certain few! BRAVO!!!
Yes it only involves 1 move at a time.
Yes you have to be sworn to that person for 42 days.
Yes you have to be @ 110% passup and more than 5% of your patron making it a fair move above your patron.
Yes this only involves a move between you and your patron so it's fair to those who might be a position or 2 higher and want opportunity to hunt the extreme to stop a move.
You know what....this could become very competetive. You know what that means? It means our chain becomes more productive. For those who don't care, they will get pushed towards the bottom but not an instant push as some think it should be. There are many players in our chain who are working hard, very hard, not 24/7 but passing up more than required. Are they all passing up at the rate of our infamous Ac? NO. Will they ever be able to pass at that rate? Not likely? Does it make their contribution less important? No! This plan was not designed to only help a few players move...it was designed with EVERY single player in mind who might or might not want the same opportunity.
Let's give our managers a HUGE round of applause for this truly unique/innovative idea which is fair to anyone in the OH and will in the end benefit everyone not just a certain few! BRAVO!!!
Dangerous Lady
I'm an AC addict...do I want help for my addiction?...NO!!!
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DL
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Wimp....I actually proposed a chain be set up like this a while ago and NO ONE....and I mean NO ONE even acknowledged the suggestion in regards to it being a good idea or bad idea. I'm assuming the reason no one responded was because CLIMBING to the TOP means more than rotating and helping EVERYONE reach the top.....do you know how many lv 200's we would eventually produce in a rotation system?Wimp Lo wrote:I had actually hoped that there might be a rotation from the top of the OH to the bottom. Some sort of systematic change in position in the OH since all are level 126 and all are hitting quota.
Since all of us are long time LD members, wouldn't it make more sense to set up a rotation every so often where those at the top move to the bottom and over time move back to the top? Then everyone gets to benefit fairly equally over time from the increased xp created by the OH.
Just my two cents.
Wimp Lo
Wimp....you might be currently placed at the bottom but you won't be bottom for long.....we all know that no one ever stays at the bottom of any chain for long.
Dangerous Lady
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Wimp Lo
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I hope you are right DL.
I do think that in a true team setup, our suggestion would be a sound one. I don't think most of us in AC are able to give up the place we have "earned" so easily.
So although it may be idealistic, it may not be realistic. However, I know I need a ton of xp to max out my tinker skills. That is my sole motivation to move to the OH.
If I am going to see the same passup for months that I had in my previous spot then this will have been a waste of time. Especially if I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of moving to a place in the chain where the xp is markedly better than how I was doing as the connection between the CC and the FC.
Wimp Lo
I do think that in a true team setup, our suggestion would be a sound one. I don't think most of us in AC are able to give up the place we have "earned" so easily.
So although it may be idealistic, it may not be realistic. However, I know I need a ton of xp to max out my tinker skills. That is my sole motivation to move to the OH.
If I am going to see the same passup for months that I had in my previous spot then this will have been a waste of time. Especially if I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of moving to a place in the chain where the xp is markedly better than how I was doing as the connection between the CC and the FC.
Wimp Lo
Who you calling a Wimp?
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Phade
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Thank you DL, glad you like it 
Wimp.. are you suggesting something like this:
Toon1
Toon2
Toon3
Toon4
Toon5
Toon6
for time period 1
Toon4
Toon5
Toon6
Toon1
Toon2
Toon3
for time period 2
something like that?
Wimp.. are you suggesting something like this:
Toon1
Toon2
Toon3
Toon4
Toon5
Toon6
for time period 1
Toon4
Toon5
Toon6
Toon1
Toon2
Toon3
for time period 2
something like that?
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Dave_Mustaine
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Wimp Lo
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I think that captures the essence of it Oof. Although I wouldnt move half of the group from the top to the bottom all at once.
I think you move one person from the top to the bottom every month or so for instance. A lot of thought would need to be given to the time period for this. As this process continues then the one that got moved to the bottom automatically, over time, moves to the top again. And then the process repeats itself so that all members take their turn at both the low and the high ends of the OH.
Wimp Lo
I think you move one person from the top to the bottom every month or so for instance. A lot of thought would need to be given to the time period for this. As this process continues then the one that got moved to the bottom automatically, over time, moves to the top again. And then the process repeats itself so that all members take their turn at both the low and the high ends of the OH.
Wimp Lo
Who you calling a Wimp?
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Phade
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Interesting, though it would kill the loyalty bonus for the ones moving.
oh and I'm not oof
you can tell by the lack of words in my posts
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you can tell by the lack of words in my posts
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acaddict
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grand patron
Oof, yes yu pretty much hit it on the head what i was talking about. It is not as if we don't look at 2-3 positions from us. My suggestion would make it more competitive for more people. If a grand patron or great grand patron had to watch more than one level below them we would get even more production up the chain.
Name/%Quota
Player 1 115%
Player 2 102%
Player 3 100%
Player 4 125%
Player 4 qualifies passing player 2 and 3 but not passing player 1. Player 1 saw player 4 making that kind of xp and hunted enough to not allow being passed. Player 4 had 110% + an extra 5% for each additional move for a 2 spot move. Player 4 only missed the move past player 1 by 2%.
I think you would see way better production from the chain under this scenerio!
Name/%Quota
Player 1 115%
Player 2 102%
Player 3 100%
Player 4 125%
Player 4 qualifies passing player 2 and 3 but not passing player 1. Player 1 saw player 4 making that kind of xp and hunted enough to not allow being passed. Player 4 had 110% + an extra 5% for each additional move for a 2 spot move. Player 4 only missed the move past player 1 by 2%.
I think you would see way better production from the chain under this scenerio!
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DL
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I know what you mean about maxing out tinker skills...someday I hope to get Kazene to that point....right now my goal is to get her to 126..once there...Qaz and I are both seriously considering moving ourselves from the chain and swearing under her...once done...we can then move her out of casual and into a more productive chain and we will do her hunitng for her...I was under her for my 1st 110 levels and she misses me...hehehehe
In response to a rotation...I think Wimp is likely thinking in the same lines I was.
eg:
1
2
3
4
5
6
etc
would become after a certain time....
2
3
4
5
6
etc
1
then 3 would move to the top next and so on ....
A rotating chain will only work if eveyone is same lv..126+...and of course everyone would need to put in same effort in all positions.
I don't nor did I suggest this be our OH chain at the time...but thought this could be a newer chain added to what we already have.
Perhaps several of them stratigically placed throughout our chains....like 3 or four smaller rotation chains.....the person on the top of the rotater would be placed into the OH...and also other rotaterss into FC and these mini chains would be like horizontals with everyone rotating plus getting placed in the OH/FC while they are in number 1 postion.
Makes sense? They would be pushers in a sense.
Anyways....this is totally off the topic here......if we chose to discuss a rotation chain...we might wanna take it to a new thread....
In response to a rotation...I think Wimp is likely thinking in the same lines I was.
eg:
1
2
3
4
5
6
etc
would become after a certain time....
2
3
4
5
6
etc
1
then 3 would move to the top next and so on ....
A rotating chain will only work if eveyone is same lv..126+...and of course everyone would need to put in same effort in all positions.
I don't nor did I suggest this be our OH chain at the time...but thought this could be a newer chain added to what we already have.
Perhaps several of them stratigically placed throughout our chains....like 3 or four smaller rotation chains.....the person on the top of the rotater would be placed into the OH...and also other rotaterss into FC and these mini chains would be like horizontals with everyone rotating plus getting placed in the OH/FC while they are in number 1 postion.
Makes sense? They would be pushers in a sense.
Anyways....this is totally off the topic here......if we chose to discuss a rotation chain...we might wanna take it to a new thread....
Dangerous Lady
I'm an AC addict...do I want help for my addiction?...NO!!!
I'm an AC addict...do I want help for my addiction?...NO!!!