Thank you for removing Brutal Ua

Lancelore · Post by **Lancelore** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:10 pm

HC,

When you removed Brutal Ua from the chain (no matter how valid your arguments may be) did you look to his 65 normal followers?

An argument like "blame it to Brutal" will be a very weak one. You too as HC has a responsebility to the members who are now out of the clan. Removing someone out of the chain is one thing, but putting his followers in the rain, is an other.

You were warned that these things could happen, but you said messures were taken and that the argument was "out of line".

Yes Brutal is my patron and I will deal with that my own way, but what to tell to my own vassals/followers?

Was there no other way to solve this problem? Due the bot buffs many players are playing as far VII buffs will take them and now they have to change their way of gameplay or they will go to another clan who has a buff bot.

Yeh you can say, come on Lancelore it is not your problem or that of your vassals; swear to another clanmember and your troubles are over, but then you take some realations to light. Brutal and I go a very long way back and believe it or not, he is one of the nicest guys I ever have met in game. Thats why I am convinced he has not done this on purpose. Btw I told you of his troubles.

I hope you will have much fun in the future but most of all much wisdom. For me and my vassals, don't worry, we will find our way.

Lancelore

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Oof · Post by **Oof** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:48 pm

Lancelore, I understand you being upset at the loss of mansion and bot access, simply as a general principle kind of thing, let alone because it directly affected your vassals. However,...

When someone is removed from a chain it does NOT mean they are removed from the clan. As much as we can, we try to retain chain vassals even after a removal; sometimes, it isn't possible (or isn't seen as being possible by the old patron). Retaining a removed chain vassal so that they remain a clan member is always the preferred route.

I am sorry that Brutal UA (temporarily) lost the monarchy association. It was not done on purpose. It is never done on purpose. Brutal UA indeed seems like a very nice person. He is absolutely welcome in the clan should he choose to stay. I will gladly dump a mule and let him swear to me if he chooses to do so.

The removal of Brutal UA and some of the other removals that are either in-work or will be posted soon is nothing personal at all. The rules of the chian are simply that everyone needs to update on a regular basis and needs to maintain a minimum level of XP production. When a character joins a chain they accept the possibility of being removed from the chain if they fall out of compliance with the rules. Sometimes, it happens that chain removal also results in loss of clan membership.

It is unfortunate when that happens and we try to correct the situation as quickly as possible.

Heatmiser · Post by **Heatmiser** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:09 pm

Also, these are some of the risks that go along with being in a chain.

When you are not in compliance with chain policy, you run the risk of being removed. Part of that means your vassals go with you. It is up to the individual being removed to give a heads up to their vassals about the situation. After all, it is up to each person in the chain to comply with chain rules. If they are not in compliance we always give plenty of time and warnings before removal. In other words, the person being removed has plenty of time to give their vassals a heads up about the situation and plenty of time to take action to either comply with chain policy or make arrangements to go under somebody else in the clan.

We really don't need to make any "arguments" defending a removal.
The chain must have rules to function properly. Those rules must be enforced to be effective. The removal of any player from our chains is something that must be done to enforce those rules. As such, your managers are simply doing their jobs.

You wanted a reason though, so I'll give you the best one I can offer:
I mean, in a nutshell you're basically asking us why we are following and enforcing the chain rules.

What if we didn't remove anyone for noncompliance?
What if we didn't enforce the chain rules?

The ranks of the chain would then be filled with nonuploaders and quota failures. The people who make quota, upload, and follow the other rules, would then leave out of frustration with others not pulling their own weight. In short, the chain would fall apart.

So that's the reason we have, and will continue to follow policy and enforce the rules. This really has nothing to do with how good a person the player is. I myself have been booted from this chain for noncompliance in the past. Hey, I'm a good person too, but I wasn't doing what needed to be done to stay in the chain, so I was removed. In my situation, just as in this one, its nothing personal. It's just the managers doing their jobs. Enforcing chain policy.

Lancelore · Post by **Lancelore** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:13 pm

Oof and Heat,

Thank you for your quick reply. It is by no means my intention to make a debate over the chain rules. They are clear and understandeble. And it is good to have some ppl to do the nasty work of chain managers (anyway nasty at this point).

But the impact for the followers is heavy. I already spoke on the phone with one of my vassals who asked me what to do? He often makes use of Jason, so I answered to look for an other bot. What else can I say?
Anyway you know what I mean. It takes away much fun for these players on that moment.
Ok I can reswear to another player of the clan and have the solution for my vassals. Maybe I will do that. But to whom? As I told before I find a good patron/vassal relation a high value. And leaving Brutal feels like betrayal.
I will speak (hopefuly soon) with my patron Brutal and will work out a solution. Returning to LD is an option, but no garantee for this moment.

Thanks again for your nice and clear answers.

Lancelore

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:23 pm

While regretable, that is a risk people accept when entering a chain. This has happened several times in the past. People have been dropped from their chain patron for one reason or another and then all of the vassals have found new patrons. There's no "fix all". It would be nice if people could keep an extra vassal slot open, but that's not always the case.

The only solution I can offer is to find a patron temporarilly until Brutal can get back in game. Then, reswear to him.

What you have experience is what hundreds experience during a chain break. This is why they are frowned upon so much. The key difference is the chain breaks are done with malicious intent.

Lancelore · Post by **Lancelore** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:49 am

Panzer,

Thank you for your attention. In the meantime we have reached a solution. Brutal has sworn in back to LD. And in time. None of the fellowers has left. It did cost me a whole evening to convince them to stay, but it worked out nice at the end.

Panzer and chainmanagers thx again for your replies.

Lancelore

Trekman · Post by **Trekman** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:25 pm

Without discussing the removal itself or its reasons.....

The removal instructions do *not* say to remove Brutal UA as a vassal, but that that his vassal has to swear to his patron.
And with 12 vassal slots it is very common to drop some placeholder mule/vassal for the former grand-vassal, not to drop the former chain-vassal directly.

Apparently it did not work that way this time.....

But this incident shows another aspect of younger AC history that was always a thorn in my eye....the total dependency from and addiction to buff bots, which in too many cases seems to be the only reason to be in a clan.
Of course being stranded outside the clan due to some break in the hierarchy above is never acceptable. But if the buff bots are the only reason to care about that...........

I mean - Lancelore needed a whole evening" to convince people *not* to leave the clan because for a short time buff bots at the mansion where not recallable (btw the run from Hebian to the mansion is not far and its totally without danger even for a naked mule) ???

What does this say about those (sub)vassals' stance towards the clan ?
To me it says "I do not care who this clan and its people are, as long as they provide the service I demand....cut me off the bots, and I hop to another clan immediately"

Well - this is not the place to begin yet another fruitless buff bot discussion....
But nevertheless this aspect of the unfortunate removal saddens me the most.....

As a little sidenote - AC2 is a bit over one year old, and the buff bot menace is already a major problem. Turbine is reconstructing character templates and skills to avoid buff bots "as soon as possible before people get too addicted and dependent - and before they level too fast due to buffs not meant for their level range or template - we learned from AC1".
Unfortunately the changes affect each and every player, regardless whether they ever were or used a bot or not. But that seems to be the price we have to pay.....

Phade · Post by **Phade** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:50 pm

I think they should make 'Other' spells last 1/4 as long as 'Self' spells
this way you can still buff someone to equip an item, or so they can summon a portal, or for crafting purposes.. but it limits the usefullness of buffbots