Are these numbers right?

[Aero]

I have been busting my hump trying to make quota. This weekend I earned over 200 million and leveled past 138 and 139 (I ran a fellow at VoD, Saturday and Sunday for hours), but yet it still shows me at only 105.88%. Treestats puts me at 477%. In my previous chain and my quick touch with LSD the passup was much higher.

Am I not reading this right?

[DL]

I often wonder about the numbers too....I try to make sense of it...it never computes...I understand as long as I'm passing that is the main thing and I do upload every day.....today I made about 230m....not all my own xp...a fair deal was passup....but even still...my % barely moved...shrug

And I see others who have not made near the amount I've made or passed up and they have higher %.......that's what baffles me more than anything.

anyways...didn't mean to hi-jack your post Aero...but looked like a good place to possibly get some clarification.

[acaddict]

You really need to look about 6-8 followers below that character to judge how much xp is really being passed to you. Another thing aero, you have not been in the chain very long ie. your loyalty bonus is not as high as some of the followers 6-8 levels below you.

A 10% loyalty bonus of all 6-8 players below you is huge. My point being they are passing up way more of a percent than you are at this point. It will normalize after about 3-4 months of being sworn to the same patron or keeping your character on 24/7 by using /real on (a house command). Use /real off to turn it off, but it sounds like you need to log out after the later command and log back in.

Just fyi for DL: Look at your 6-8 followers below you and then look at mine. Since mine are so much further down the chain, they are almost all around 1 billion over 21 days under your 6-8 followers.

Hope this kinda helps ya see that the numbers are correct!

[DL]

Just fyi for DL: Look at your 6-8 followers below you and then look at mine. Since mine are so much further down the chain, they are almost all around 1 billion over 21 days under your 6-8 followers.

Hope this kinda helps ya see that the numbers are correct!

What I'm referring to is not just you...but quite a few of you who have earned xp less than me....yet your quota% are a whole lot higher......that's what does not compute to me........if I'm earning more xp's than you per say in the same 21 day cycle......should my quota % be higher than yours?...what I'm seeing is much much lower....so basically if you are closer to the top...you have to earn more xp's and your quota% is lower and you work much harder to meet it, exceed it or get the 110%.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people might think their quota% are high and that it means they hunt more/earn more thna everyone else......however...look closely at the numbers....we have members already in the 4b passup and others very close to it and their quotas% are a whole lot lower than yours Accaddict.....(just using you as an example here..ok)....so if a person looks at quota% as the main measurement on how hard/often a character plays and how much xp he earns...the numbers do not add up!

[Oof]

[Edit: Started this earlier in notepad, before DL's post. It's still applicable anyway, I just didn't want DL to think I was completely ignoring her. ]

Aero, you are reading the quota exactly right, I'm sure. Regarding the Treestats 477%, I don't have any idea what they use to calculate percentages. Almost certainly, they have no idea what our quota is, so I'm not sure how they calculate a percentage.

It is pretty easy to make quota in the chain; it is very difficult to make 105% let alone 110% of higher. The percentage calculation for quota acts like it is on a sliding scale.

For the bottom section of the Food Chain, where people don't get a lot of XP yet, the quota is a straight 100% of what you get. That doesn't apply to the majority of the Food Chain, generally stopping and going to the 6 million added quota at around level 100.

For the majority of the Food Chain, the quota is 93.75% of what is passed to you from your vassal, along with an additional 6 million XP added each week. (For completeness sake, it isn't exactly 6 million per week. To make the math easier, we have always rounded off to 875K per day, which is slightly higher than 6 million per week.)

To get 100% in the %quota column, all you have to do is pass up 93.75% of what you received (this should be automatically done through leadership/loyalty), and add 6 million per week to it. Pretty simply to do in most cases. However, as the amount of XP you receive from the chain goes up, it gets harder and harder to raise your %quota number much above 100%.

I need to define two terms first:

Required Quota 93.75% of what you received, plus 6 million per week.

Credit/Debit the amount of XP you are over or under your Required Quota number


The formula for calculating the quota uses your Required Quota and your Credit/Debit number. The %quota column is figured by dividing Required Quota by (Required Quota + Credit/Debit).

The Required Quota, in your case, is 1,038,390,342 (that is 93.75% of the 1,092,683,031 you received from the chain during the last 16 days, plus the added 875K per day). Your Credit/Debit is the extra 61,033,488 XP you added over and above your quota requirement.

IF you had passed up exactly 1,038,390,342 XP during the reporting period, your %quota column would have shown exactly 100%. Since you passed up an additional 61,033,488 XP your %quota is:

1,038,390,342 / (1,038,390,342 +61,033,488) = 105.88%

The reason it is so hard to raise the %quota number very much is because the XP numbers passing up from the chain get so large. The larger the raw numbers are, the greater and greater an amount you need to add in order to move the quota %.

As an example, you added 61 million XP more than required in the last 16 days, for a %quota number of 105.88%.

Doko, who is several postions below you in the chain added 71 million XP extra, for a %qutoa number of 114.85%.

The difference is he had about 500 million passed to him from the chain, while you had a little over a billion passed to you.

The more someone receives from the chain, the harder it is to post a higher percentage number in the %quota column.

It isn't as warped for the upper levels as it sounds like it might be. Even the though % numbers get harder and harder to move around, the amount of XP change from one character to the next is normally relatively small. What I'm hoping I'm saying (it's late and I'm tired) is that for two people next to each other, both will have roughly the same difficulty in changing the %quota column. Compared to someone 10 or 15 positions lower in the chain, it might be a drastic difference. That's another one of the reasons we are only promoting one position. If you are in just the right spot in the chain, it might actually be fairly easy to post %quota numbers that will indicate you should move 5 or 6 spots when, in reality, the actual XP contribution to the chain might not indicate that at all.

If I rambled too much, or didn't make sense in this post, I'll give it another shot after I sleep some.

[Aero]

Thanks for the guidance all. That really helps a lot. Especially Oof's post. Now I have an understanding why the numbers are where they are. It makes a lot of sense.

Math is like a hobby to me. Didn't like it much in high school 30 years ago, but I learned to like it afterwards. I have said it many times, that Asheron's Call is a lot of mathamatical formulas working together. This chain information based on the leadership/loyalty skills are no different.

But here is another question. How/where are the three chains set up? Are they linear or are they separate? In other words is the FC below the OH and the Casual chain below the FC, or are they three different trees? If they are three separate trees, would it be possible for a 126 to get into the OH and not receive any passup from below (being at the bottom of the chain -- starting over like they were level 75 or something)?

[Oof]

The three chains, Casual Chain (CC), Food Chain (FC) Order of Hyssop (OH) are three separate chains as far as quota requirements, membership requirements, promotion policy, etc. are concerned. They function, however, as three sections of one larger chain, so the XP from one doesn't simply stop when it reaches the top of that section.

The top of the CC (Fire Eagle, lvl 134) is sworn into the FC. For some time, the connecting point between the CC and FC was Wimp Tinker. Wimp was in the FC and then simply had the CC (through Fire Eagle) as a non-chain vassal. Since the CC has lvl 126+ members in it, the CC has to swear to a lvl 126+ in the FC. Wimp has then the designated bottom lvl 126 in the Food Chain in an effort to have the CC's XP enter into the FC as low as possible.

Wimp Tinker posted to move to the OH recently, so his job of being the connecting point between the CC and the FC moved to Kerosene. We need to move Kerosene to the lowest 126 spot in the FC, but haven't gotten around to that yet (I think Wimp moved to the OH last week).

The top of the FC is Phade. Phade is sworn to the bottom of the OH, currently Trekman the Axeman. (Wimp Tinker has moved up one spot. Wimp and Trekman will move up some when we bring more people into the OH in a few days.)


Graphically, it is:

OH
OH
OH
OH
Trekman the Axeman
Phade
FC
FC
FC
FC
Kerosene
FC Fire Eagle
FC CC
FC CC
FC CC
FC CC

Areo wrote:

would it be possible for a 126 to get into the OH and not receive any passup from below (being at the bottom of the chain -- starting over like they were level 75 or something)?

No. The bottom member of the OH has the entire FC and CC under them. We connected the different segments together so we could pass XP through as many people as possible.

We also have a horizontal fellowship of sorts that stay in the NW room of the marketplace for hunting in the tusker dungeons on AL. That fellowship is anchored by Another BM (one of my characters on a second account) who is sworn below the bottom of the FC. The horizontal fellow could pump millions of XP into the bottom of the FC IF we could get enough people to hunt in it. We have had sporadic participation in that fellow, but in all fairness haven't made an organized effort at developing a hunting program for it yet.

[Trekman]

In case you thought that only Oof can make large explanation posts :

Regarding the Treestats 477%, I don't have any idea what they use to calculate percentages. Almost certainly, they have no idea what our quota is, so I'm not sure how they calculate a percentage.

TreeStats, as well as Meginjarder, calculate a flat 100%. No quota cap, no real requirement, just basic math "Input-Output".
Everyone using TreeStats/MJ for personal enjoyment (as only ACStats is required in our chains) should check whether their Chain/Key Vassals are set correctly.

BTW I know how everyone feels who finds the %quota numbers confusing at first sight.
They are confusing as long as you only look at the percentage, not the real numbers behind it.

The 6/12 mil. per week usually are not the issue.
And I will always pass through 93.75% of what I get (provided the Leadership/Loyalty requirements) without any effort, regardless of how much I get. So why should it be more difficult to reach 101% or 110% in the %quota column?
This is the misguiding approach.

Usually you only know/estimate how much XP you made in VoD or Holding or....the bigger the number, the more proud you are and the more confident to overfill quota. This is sufficient as long as you only care about passing the quota which is in fact the constant 6/12 mil. per week you can compare your produced XP to (ignoring the automagic 93.75%). If you like, that is sufficient to keep your %quota column at 100%.

But if you attempt to raise the %quota column, that confidence is premature as long as you do not know the other variable in the equation - the chain-vassal XP.

You must not compare your known XP addition of X millions to some "metaphysic" constant value of 93.75% or the constant cap of 6/12 mil., but to some unknown number Y of chain-vassal XP (which you only can see after the chain vassal has uploaded ACStats).
The larger Y is, the smaller X is in comparison (both before and after doing the 93.75% calculation on Y). Or vice versa. And that directly influences your %quota column, hence

The more someone receives from the chain, the harder it is to post a higher percentage number in the %quota column

Therefore Oof's example with real XP numbers is much more descriptive than any well-put explanation only using the 93.75% "metaphysic approach" - although I do not understand how he puts what is devided by what :

..dividing Required Quota by (Required Quota + Credit/Debit).

would mean that the bigger your credit the smaller your result, and the bigger your debit the better for you

1,038,390,342 / (1,038,390,342 +61,033,488) = 105.88% (wrong : 94.4% this way ) should be

(1,038,390,342 +61,033,488) / 1,038,390,342 = 105.88%

Another thing I do not get yet is how the %quota column is composed in the different chains.
As I understand it, in the OH chain is based on the vassal's "produced XP" instead of the "passed-up XP". At least that's how it is used in the OH Promotion Policy ?!

[Oof]

OOPS! That's because I wrote it backwards Trekman. You are absolutely right, the way I wrote that, the more you hunted, the worse your percentage would be.

Another thing I do not get yet is how the %quota column is composed in the different chains.
As I understand it, in the OH chain is based on the vassal's "produced XP" instead of the "passed-up XP". At least that's how it is used in the OH Promotion Policy ?!

The math used in both sections of the chain is the same. The OH and the FC are actually in the same listing of characters; the OH simply has a higher per day quota associated with it. The promotion policy compares a vassal's %quota column to his/her patron's %quota column. It is not a perfect solution by any means, but was the best solution thought of. Since both vassal and patron are working against a fixed 12 million quota, and since both vassal and patron typically receive roughly the same amount of XP from the chain, comparing the %quota numbers between the vassal and patron seemed like a fair way to determine promotion eligibility.

[Aero]

If getting to 105% is hard and 110% near impossible, how do players get to 122%, 150%, 182%, etc. ? It can't be their loyalty as mine is higher than some of them.

What do you mean the horizonal chain stays in the market place? What do they do there?

Is it possible to have more than one of a player's toon in the chains (one in FC and one in CC)?

[Oof]

If getting to 105% is hard and 110% near impossible, how do players get to 122%, 150%, 182%, etc. ?

That is an excellent question Aero. Since I know no one in LD would choose to violate CoC just to make higher quota numbers (and run the risk of getting booted) there is no reason to talk about any such clandestine ways of getting XP as running UCM. The only high number player I have any first hand experience with is Acaddict. In his case, I know he simply hunts like a madman (which is a good thing Ac! ). Especially this time of year, some of the other players are college or high school students who are home for the summer and therefore get to log a very large number of hours ingame. And, yes, some of the XP is probably from macroing, but the acceptable kind. Running tank or something while at the keyboard will allow a player to log longer sessions (since it requires less attention). Keep in mind there is nothing in the CoC which denounces all macroing. Anything that isn't denied by the CoC is implictly allowed. Bottom line: the only two ways to get crazy high XP is to log crazy long hours, or have a number of real vassals who generate a lot of XP. For a while, nearly all of my vassals were live, hunting vassals and I could run 125% without even hunting. (Sadly, I'm nearly alone now. )

What do you mean the horizonal chain stays in the market place? What do they do there?

This is something we have been playing around with the idea of seriously implementing but haven't put forth the effort yet. The idea behind a horizontal chain is to have several people with very high loyalty sworn to the bottom person in the chain. Then, you have a handful of these "loyalty vassals" stand around in a fellowship pretty much 24/7. Other people from the chain donate a buff cycle every day hunting with the horizontal chain. The person hunting might be the only hunter in a fellowship of four, and would therefore only get 50% of the normal, solo, XP. However, each of the three other fellow members would get 50% of each kill and would pass up basically a vassal's worth of 150% of the XP, pushing hundreds of millions of XP into the bottom of the chain during the course of a week. If we could get enough hunters from the chain to commit to donating even one buff cycle hunting, people would be entering and leaving the horizontal fellowship all through the day and night.

So, What do they do there? Mostly, nothing but stand around and keep leadership/loyalty buffs on. Another BM is the character who usually holds the fellowship and he is usually in the NW room of the marketplace with a password of LD. The marketplace shares the same landblock as all of the tusker dungeons on AL, so anyone hunting in any of the tusker dungeons will pass back XP without loss to the fellow holders who are standing in safety in the marketplace. Lately, I have started taking Another BM with Borg to hunt on Caul if I notice there is no one in the fellowship on AL at the time. I've been having him follow Borg at a little distance and keep Borg healed (because Borg is a gimp still ) and it seems to work fairly well.

Is it possible to have more than one of a player's toon in the chains (one in FC and one in CC)?

Absolutely. There is no maximum limit to the number of characters you can have in the Casual Chain. There is also no limit to the number of characters you can have in the Food Chain, but it is handled on a case-by-base basis. Oof is near the top of the Food Chain and one of my other characters on the same account, Borg, is the bottom of the Food Chain. He isn't near the bottom; he IS the bottom, but I also put him there on purpose, just to add a little to the chain when I have the opportunity.

[Tynerion]

Tynerion's head goes *thum thum* *thum thum*

[Oof]

Isn't that the sound the Balrog made in Lords of the Rings?

[Aero]

LOL

The marketplace shares the same landblock as all of the tusker dungeons on AL

How on "Dereth" did you figure this out? I wonder why Turbine would do this. You mean if you stand in the Marketplace you will receive the same xp in a fellow as being in the dungeon itself? How about one player in one AL dungeon and another in another dungeon. Would they still share equally?

[Oof]

Yes. WHY they do that I don't have a clue.

Every dungeon on AL shares the same landblock as the marketplace. This does not include the surface hunting areas, only the dungeons themselves. You could have one person holding the fellowship and eight other people hunting, each in a different dungeon, and all share the XP equally.

Also, the Outside Accursed Halls portal drop (get there by giving a cup of sake to the Drunken Madman outside of Baishi) shares the same landblock as all of VoD and the Dires areas surrounding VoD.

All of Caul Island is on the same landblock.

Someone told me all of the Singularity Repositories and the virindi shroud dungeon share the same landblock.

There are probably others I don't know about.