Removed for UCM

Wimp Lo · Post by **Wimp Lo** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:03 am

Grimly, I think you have missed a main point in some of the responses throughout this thread. Drak did not receive capital punishment, which would be banned from the clan.

He was removed from the chain and has the opportunity to get back in the chain if he agrees to abide by the rules of the clan.

If he does not agree to abide by our rules then he will not be allowed in the chains and in fact will have made a decision that our clan is not for him. In all ways the decision is ultimately in his hands, just as it was his decision to UCM in the first place.

Wimp Lo

Oof · Post by **Oof** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:45 am

Thorgrim,

What I did with Drak is exactly the same thing I have always done with anyone who was violating the CoC like that (I'll explain the why in a second). I quietly let the people above and below Drak know that they needed to swear around him. He was removed from the chain, but not from the clan. He is welcome to join the chain again the second he works it out with the HC that he won't break the CoC again. He is, certainly as far as I'm concerned, still my clanmate, and chainmate is he wants to be. When I was growing up, if one of my brothers got into trouble for something, he was still my brother, regardless of whether he was still grounded or not.

As for the reason for removing people who are violating the CoC as soon as we become aware there is a problem: Panzer mentioned briefly it is to maintain the integrity of the chain (not the clan, but the chain). Drak almost assuredly would not do anything purposely to cause a chain break; however, other people might if they were facing a possible ejection from the clan for macroing in violation of the CoC. One of the things we do as chain managers is to try very, very hard to apply the rules equally to everybody. Even when it is an unpleasant thing like removing Drak, we still try hard to apply the rules equally. Sometimes we mess up I'm sure, but we do try to be consistent in our application of the rules.

The reason for the immediate removal from the chain is because of the magnitude of what COULD happen if we didn't remove the character in question. Think about how long we have been working now to repair the little break that still isn't completely fixed in the FC/OH. It's been about a week now since we did the emergency patch to restore mansion access. Without the patch we did the entire Food Chain was without mansion access. With the patch we did, the Food Chain regained mansion access, but nearly the entire OH has been out of the chain.

There are 100+ people below me in the chain. If I wanted to (maybe because I thought I was in danger of kicking booted from a clan because of a rule I didn't agree with anyway) I could cause a break that would take months to fix, if it could be completely fixed at all. All I would need to do is break from my patron. That would make me the monarch, along with giving me the monarch's boot command. Then, I could take the chain listing that is easily available and start booting each and every character, starting from the bottom of the chain and going up. EVERYBODY would be without a patron, without vassals, and without mansion access. If someone wanted to, they could decimat the chain in five or ten minutes. That's why our standard action is the remove the offending character from the chain immediately. It's also why we do it quietly, and will let the character know what we did AFTER they have been safely removed.

It was not a personal thing with Drak. We can't make exceptions in bumping people from the chain though, because it is impossible to decide then who needs removing and who we can trust not to get mad and do something that would hurt an awful lot of people in the chain.

I truly don't want you mad about this, or Drak, or anyone else. It's part of the chain business practices to remove folks from the chain until after things have been worked out. Drak could have already been back in the chain by now if he wanted. And, yes, if the character in question had been Panzer, you, me, or whoever in the chain (if Panzer was still a chain member) I would do the swear around in exactly the same way again. My primary job as a chain manager is to protect the chain. After that, it's to try to make it efficient, to help it grow, and all of that other stuff. If protecting the chain means denying someone the free XP produced by the chain for a few days while they work things out with the HC, then that's what I'm going to do.

This thread has gotten a lot longer than I had hoped. It was to have been simply an announcement type of post to let people know what happened, to give Drak a few days to decide what he wants to do, and to serve as a reminder to chainers not to break the CoC.

Flanker · Post by **Flanker** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:50 am

Thorgrim,

I respectfully appriciate your response.

We are all entitled to our opinion, and that is one thing that is great about this clan. Opinions are welcomed.

You said so yourself. He broke the CoC. He was removed from the chain. I accept that I should have PM'ed him about why he was removed after it was done. But I dropped the ball. Lessons learned and again this is hindsight, always a clearer picture when we look back on it.

So now you may ask why he was chained around before being sent a PM? If the contact was made to him and stated he needed to stop UCM no matter how it went we could have risked a serious chain break. So measures were taken to prevent that and keep the integrity of the chain intact.

Again all good points you have brought up.

You crossed the line however. This has been a good discussion. I think one of the better ones with no flaming. Your insult of saying the HC does a fine job of making a monkey out of ourselves, was immature.

Dont reduce this to flaming or name calling, we have been keeping respectful conversation going.

As you have seen over the course of time in this clan, we have relativly few problems that encrouch us. Why? Because the HC is doing its job and doing it well. Many problems and situations have been averted and patched all from behind the scenes.

So dont discount the work done based on one incedent. I make mistakes in my live, but there is not one I dont learn from. So I will take something away from this in a positive perspective.

Drak, as stated, is welcome back to the chain provided he stops his UCM. I doubt he will from the response to the PM I recieved back to him after sending him the SS. But that is his decision and choice to make.

Drak still has the opertunity to work this out and I will be more than happy to talk with him more as I said above.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:16 am

Thanks Oof, and Flanker.

I said what I had to say. And I really feel most times, that the High Council is only there for the select few (mainly the dudes in the council)

This is not a flame, and the response about the Monkey business, or what have you, was mainly to get a response out of Trekman, as I know being a chain manager, and (all of the above) can be a thankless job.

I tend to be pretty relaxed, and I was truely not mad at all. Believe me. But I like to make a point, and can be very synical in trying to get my point across. People that know me in RL know that I rarely hold any punches, and I've REALLY been pretty silent in past decisions. (Cause lets face it, I'm not part of the High Council am I?)

Nor would I want to be. Etc. I know the HC isn't a democracy, yet a bunch of good friends joined together to govern a clan. In turn, if I was in your position, I would act much the same way I'm sure.

Sometimes, we have to be able to laugh at ourselves, and at the situations. And not take everything so seriously. I'll end this thread here, and I probably won't respond to anything else. Peace has been made, (Trekman you might as well PM me if you wish to continue this) and Let sleeping dogs lie.

Thanks again.

Thorgrim

Flanker · Post by **Flanker** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:32 am

Well a sleeping dog is better than a monkey

I understand your views Thorgrim, and I greatly appriciate a good from the heart discussion.

Time for a nap is you ask me

Cheers

Muneman · Post by **Muneman** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:07 am

Please, let this dog sleep already!!! I'm sure we all have more important things to do than argue about the should of's could of's and would of's. Now lets all make nice and generate some xp and have some fun

Kazsam · Post by **Kazsam** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:43 am

Muneman i agree, I quit "reading" this post pages ago

Cept your little short one just now

grimly fiendish · Post by **grimly fiendish** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:44 pm

just a little note to wimp lo

i wasnt really talking about this person i was talking in general and about all and he can get back in but they also said non chain memebers would be booted from clan outright