Removed for UCM

Coji · Post by **Coji** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:41 am

Panz, are you an Admin? is anyone in LD an admin? im with Thorgrim on this one. Some may use El tank or whatever, but it should never be his clan that kicks him out of the chain, especially when he was macroing for loot, not xp. I dont even know the guy, but i am one of the poorest high levels in the game. every time i go to dungeons to make a few sings there are ALLWAYS people who macro for them. And allthough i wish i could have a ton of sings, i dont go and report these guys for macroing. Here is my one main reason. I love this game. you may ask why i wouldnt want these "fake people" out. The reason is this game is dieing. every person we get banned is one less guy who plays the game. I very rarely see anyone new. if we kick out our clan members of the chain, why would they hang with us. let the guys who are admins be the bad guys. look away. they should not ban macroers (nor should we punish them), they should find ways to stop it.

Oof · Post by **Oof** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:55 am

If we don't keep our own house in order there certainly isn't anyone else who will do it for us.

Yes, there are at least two tank admins who are LD members (that I know of anyway). Panzer isn't one of them, but that isn't really the point. Drak and anyone else who is proven to be breaking our clan's CoC will be removed from the chain. Is that wrong? Would you like to see things like removing people not happen? It's a really simple fix, just don't break the CoC.

Also, Drak was removed from the chain, pending him talking to the HC; however, if he agrees to stop macroing and would like to continue with the chain he is welcome back in (read the modified macro policy posted elsewhere). If he chooses to continue macroing, then he is out of the chain, and rightly so, because everyone in the chain has already agreed they will abide by the conditions of the CoC.

In a very real sense, we didn't remove Drak from the chain, Drak removed himself by breaking the CoC, and then almost ensured he would be noticed by where he chose to macro.

It is my sincere hope the Drak is the last person we EVER have to remove from the chain for breaking the CoC. It is also my sincere hope that he chooses to abide by the rules we have in place, and opts to return to the chain.

Flanker · Post by **Flanker** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:30 am

Coji,

Why would someone knowingly and willingly break the rules that holds this clan together, and has done so since the begining of this clan in the first week of SC?

Why put down the cohesiveness that has held us together to be the longest standing clan and longest running chain on SC?

If some one sits and macro's all day long is that person really contributing to the charater of the game?

Our clan strives to bring fun to its members without that fun impeding the enjoyment of others.

Its a fair rule to live by.

We will continue to enforce to code of conduct and remove people from the chain that are not in compliance.

Does this mean they are out for good? No it doesnt. They are more than welcomed back to the chain and/or clan if they agree to follow the CoC.

It is that simple follow the rules that you agreed to when joining.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:43 am

"Panzerfaust" First, there was nothing "SNEAKY LIKE". This is done every time a chainer breaks the UCM CoC to protect the integrity of the chain. I also tried to contact him several times before I went back to the Acid Prop the second time, thinking he would be back at the keyboard. He was not. I went back to the dungeon to grab loot, like I was intending to do the first time, and he is upstairs UCMing. How do you get hold of a person that is never at the keyboard?

Panzerfaust, I dont' mean to stir up a can of flame supreme here, but I usually try and PM someone that is never at the keyboard.

I've been in this clan for a long time. LONG TIME. Youkay is one of my reallife friends. We live in the same city. And I remember what it was like when he and Zataki held command.

I believe it was Coji who asked if you were admins? if you were Turbine, if you were MSN, etc. Someone else answered "NO" you weren't admins. You didn't work for Turbine. Hence, perhaps its not your job to seek for UCMers. AFKERS, ACMers. Etc.

I really do have a lot of respect for you, and for what you've done (with the help of many I'm sure) with the clan, and keeping it together. I honestly believe that Last Dynasty is the best monarchy out there. I do.

Again, I go into dungeons, and find peeps afk all the time. ALL THE TIME. but when does it make it right? In heavy traffic dungeons. "NOT RIGHT?" and then in the wilderness, where nobodyhangs out, but 4-9 guys who all know each other, and choose to camp where nobody else wnats to go, go afk, when Nobody's around..........if a tree falls in the forest............blah blah.

We keep hearing talk of Chain Integrity..... Lets thinka bout this. Integrity?? Not many peeps I know actually leveled to 126 or 189, or 201, or 204 or 209 on their owns. I know a lot of them, but the majority, joined chains. Not because of integrity, but out of greedyness, and the drive to make some whoop a$$ exp's.

Again, I'm like everybody else. I have an opinion. And this is just mine. Doesn't mean people have to like it, but I know Ihave a right to voice it.

Live and Let Live. I think Coji said it best. This game is dying. Byron (Youkay) has been looking EVERYWHERE to try and purchase a few more copies of the game lately, and you just can't get it. Its outta print. etc. For those that like to actually play, its one of these things were you have to keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

A HUGE problem with afkers, or what have you, is a lot of them get greedy. They aren't happy being able to macro one or two nights a week, but they have to macro 24/7. Man, these guys are cutting off their own throats. For god sakes. If UCMers would do it "once in a while" and let the majority of people get their fix also. We wouldn't get a lot of this anti blah blah flamers ball going.

I hate it too. Its ruined a lot of the game. But all this bickering, and reporting, (and turbine won't ban anybody anymore BTW, they nearly lost their shirts with the last fiasco, and not to mention AC2) We're playing on borrowed time. Like it or not. CoC or not. I truely believe to live and let live. Turn a blind eye. If you can't get a hold of me in game, cause your busy, Send me a personal message.

A lot of chainers, are just that. CHAINERS. Take away the chain and see what happens. I can honestly say, I've worked my way from the bottom. stayed at the bottom for over 20 levels. Pusher fellows didn't exist. The occasional evicerator pincer fellowship was all you'd get, and those were FEW and far between. (I can count them on one hand)

Like Kazsam, I worked my way up. Like most. And Kaz said it best, (in my own words) Exp's at the top SUCK! But I've always been a firm believer of "free exp's are free exp's" . I'd never leave the chain. But I dislike the freedom the high council takes in trying to instill their own CoC so forceablly. I just want to play a game, and have fun. I hate having to worry about gettting reported, or banned for swearing at the mansion, or ANYWHERE. I pay mymoney like everybody else.

No, I don't want to start swearing everywhere I go. But If I'm talking to a good friend of mine, and we happen to get carried away, I'd hate to be "REPREMANDED" by my "KING". if you catch my drift. Sometimes, I really feel like CoC gets carried too far, as to what it can really do over a cable modem.

Take from this what you will, Leave from it what you want. But the BS should stop. Truely makes me want to quit. AC in general.

Thorgrim

Flanker · Post by **Flanker** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:09 am

Thorgrim,

Why has LD been around so long? Why has it stoof the test of time when so many have failed?

We stick to a statue. We stick to a code of ethics. We try and be fair at every turn.

You stated yourself that macro's has ruined a lot of things for you yet we should turn a blind eye.

Perhaps the macro's that you ran into on one of your nights out was just a group of people doing it their once or twice a week. But it still made you mad and upset that its was effecting your game play.

We dont want to do anything that would effect anothers fun. In your stated case that happened to you.

When turbine installed the no macro policy into the game we took that into our CoC. We are not going to endorse behavior that is prohibited by the developers.

We loosened the knot on macro's with the lastest change to the CoC. Stating in a nut shell that ACM would be allowed in low traffic areas as to not effect another person having fun. Its a game and we want to ensure that each of our members has fun.

Youkay and Zataki laid a great foundation. That foundation was built on trust, honor, and integrity.

You stated you didnt want to be repremanded for cursing at the mansion. What about the 11 year old who cant play anymore because his/her parents saw the language that was crossing the screen. True you can not midigate all the bads of the world, but when people come to the clan mansion, our the home of the LD, they should be able to do so without having their young ears burning.

Its all a matter of taking other people into consideration. WHen you UCM your not doing that, you have blatent disregard for other people. If you are ACM then you have control and can adjust the program running to ensure that you do not adversly effect some one else in a negative manner.

So you want us to turn the blind eye, forget cursing at the mansion, where is the line drawn?

And for note the clan always comes before the chain, and there are far more members not in the chain than in the chain.

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:02 am

Hey Oof, I see that I have touched a very personal nerve with you. I'm sorry for being a tough critic, but I feel sometimes it's important to stand up for the little guys.

For now, I'm just going to sit here and cross my fingers you guys make sure to keep this system of automatic casting out of clan members fair, and give everyone a equal chance to be heard. Should a high council member be macroing, I'd expect they be treated the same as a "lower" member would.

Anyway, out of personal respect for you, and the hard work you put into this chain I will respectively agree to disagree. Of course, if anyone would like to continue this debate, contact me privately. Please feel free to do so should you agree or disagree with me via a pm here, or quick chat on aim (misiu16).

Thanks,
Downy

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:51 am

We keep hearing talk of Chain Integrity..... Lets thinka bout this. Integrity?? Not many peeps I know actually leveled to 126 or 189, or 201, or 204 or 209 on their owns. I know a lot of them, but the majority, joined chains. Not because of integrity, but out of greedyness, and the drive to make some whoop a$$ exp's.

When I say integrity, i'm talking about the infrastructure of the chain. Making sure that it doesn't fall apart from a break and affect many more than it should.

Just for the record Downy, it's generally the "little guys" that do this. It's the bigger ones that break this rule.

Trekman · Post by **Trekman** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:54 am

Thorgrim - as a fellow axer please heed my advice :

Don't let the fact that you are a personal friend of Drag cloud your eyes.
It honors you that you try to defend a friend, but please keep rational and heed the facts. Rules are rules are rules, and you cannot demand to ignore them just because you happen to know an involved person in RL.
Because where would that lead to ? "Wait, I know XXX personally, lets not enforce the chain quota rule on him" or "Uhm - my friend did steal someone else's armor with the trade-window trick ? You have to understand, he just needed that armor" ????

I know what I am talking about - a RL friend of mine once upon a time appeared on the VNBoards "Lyceum's Thief List" and it took me more than a week to contact the responsible people, browse several clan boards and gather the evidence. I had to admit that my friend actually did what he was accused of, and finally when I directly asked him about it he had the guts to admit it. This did not end my RL friendship and did not make him "less worth in RL", because this is a GAME where we have to take the INGAME consequences for how we act INGAME.

The fact that Drag was caught UCMming (or acting alike, however you define it) does not make him a bad person per se. It simply makes him a person who did break a rule. "Ignorance is no excuse" does not even fit here, because the LD CoC's stance on UCM is well-known far beyond the letters of the CoC.

It looks totally awkward how you and others attack Panz for doing something we all even demanded several macro discussions ago - to finally enforce the well-known CoC. Panz does not have to be an El-Tank Admin, he does not have to be a +Admin. He is one of the LD members we agreed to answer to when being asked in a potential UCM situation during a few of the many macro discussions happening on the boards.
I do not recall your opinion in those discussions (or whether you even posted), so I definitely do not remember seeing you objecting that decision back then....
But even if Drag was not clan member back at the time of those discussions and cannot know about that agreement - come on - Panzerfaust is our monarch, common courtesy should tell us to answer him at least on one of the repeated Say/Tells...

The opinion of others, that Drag would not have macroed if he knew that the established CoC would be enforced, is hilarious in itself and is not worth any more comment. Besides one maybe, namely that those saying this implicitely assume he was macroing which is a sort of pre-conviction that Drag does not deserve (or did they already see the evidence and accepted it as proof ?).
Even your statement that Drag "just wanted a little salvage" falls into that category, and you do not really help him with that...

Did Drag macro ? I personally do not know as I know neither the situation nor the evidence. Therefore I do not accuse him, but you have to understand that I cannot defend him either and I definitely cannot accept to bend the rules for him that I abide.

Although I do not accuse Drag, I must say that I have enough trust in Panzer's integrity to assume he does not accuse people with all the dire consequences out of the blue for fun or for personal dislike and without evidence.
Drag apparently does not agree that the evidence is proof. I guess that is his right as an accused - no accused is supposed to voluntarily accept everything presented against him. But be honest - does his reaction including the pouting posts make any sense if he really believes he is innocent ?

As a little side note - you said

Thorgrim wrote:but I usually try and PM someone that is never at the keyboard

How can I interpret this ? "being never at the keyboard" is the ultimate definition of UCM. Therefore you actually assume that Drag was *never at the keyboard*, hence you take it as granted that Drag *really* was UCMing ?

If Drag is your RL buddy, talk to him. Tell him that UCM is not a peccadillo (not even for "just a bit salvage") and the clan's stance towards it is not something minor to be ignored.
If he made a mistake by misjudging a situation or the use of a plugin it would cost him more to act pouting and childish than to stand for it. Tell him to work out a solution with Panz and the HC (who are all reasonable people as long as they are not "made a monkey out of").

Oof · Post by **Oof** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:18 am

Good morning Downy.

There have been a couple of posts between your and this reply so I'm including the passages I'm referencing so ease of reading.

Hey Oof, I see that I have touched a very personal nerve with you. I'm sorry for being a tough critic, but I feel sometimes it's important to stand up for the little guys.

Yes, you did touch a very personal nerve with me, and a nerve that has been troubling me for a long time. I probably let go more than I should have and for that I apologize. Drak is level 162 according to ACStats. I don't think he qualifies as little.

For now, I'm just going to sit here and cross my fingers you guys make sure to keep this system of automatic casting out of clan members fair, and give everyone a equal chance to be heard. Should a high council member be macroing, I'd expect they be treated the same as a "lower" member would.

We didn't cast anyone out of the clan; I only had him sworn around in the chain and also asked that he keep his old patron so as to retain mansion access and all of that. He is only out of the chain while everything gets sorted out. The removal from the chain is done to protect the chain against someone getting mad and causing a chain break that could be very hard to fix, just because they were mad at getting into trouble. I'm not saying Drak would do that at all; it's something we apply across the board because you never really know how that other person across the keyboard will react. It's that whole "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" thing that wise Mr. Spock talked about.

Should a high council member, or a chain manager, or whoever get caught macroing outside what is allowed by the CoC, they will absolutely be removed from the chain as quickly as possible while things get sorted out. I would remove myself just as quickly as I will with anyone else.

Anyway, out of personal respect for you, and the hard work you put into this chain I will respectively agree to disagree.

And you have every right to disagree with me, respectfully or otherwise.

I was taking exception to something you had posted. I uncharacteristically let my temper get the upper hand and wasn't respectful toward you personally like I should have been and, again, I apologize for that. You can disagree all you want. This sharing of opinions and (hopefully) coming to a common agreement about the rules, the consequences of not following them, etc., are part of what makes LD so strong. People can speak their mind freely. There are other monarchies where disagreeing with the monarch would get you booted.

Trekman · Post by **Trekman** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:25 pm

Coji wrote: I love this game. you may ask why i wouldnt want these "fake people" out. The reason is this game is dieing. every person we get banned is one less guy who plays the game. I very rarely see anyone new. if we kick out our clan members of the chain, why would they hang with us. let the guys who are admins be the bad guys. look away. they should not ban macroers (nor should we punish them), they should find ways to stop it.

I would have a lot to say about all this - and it would even be too much for a post of Trekman-length.

Just let me say this : You care about people who leave for being punished for macroing. That is your right and I appreciate your motivation.

But let me tell you if the clan proceeds the way you suggest - it will lose members too - including me.

You cannot do everything right for everyone. But if you *as a clan* give in to those voluntarily breaking a BASIC RULE OF THE GAME (I do not even talk about the clan CoC now) and put the blame/responsibility to maintain the rule to everybody else but yourself, I have no motivation to even deal with you again.

You see - it is a dilemma. Nobody of us has a solution. And calling the +Admins "the bad guys" because they at least try to maintain a reasonable gaming experience for those *not* depending on a plugin to play for themselves is no solution either. On the contrary you could call them "bad guys" because they do NOT do it efficiently.

Last but not least - I agree with you that "they" should find a way to stop macroing, which tells me that deep in your heart you do not like macroing either.
Maybe they actually can find a technical solution sometime (although I doubt it). But as for now the CoC/Ban-Stick is the only available method and it should be used even if it is not too effective.

grimly fiendish · Post by **grimly fiendish** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:38 pm

quick question for you all and this kinda ties into what i said before

i hear alot of how ucm is unfair to others(which it is mostly)
and talk about ethics and morality being the reason behind things

if this is how everyone feels why wasnt UCM banned before turbine said its a no-no if your so worried about the other guy ya should have banned it as soon as it became an issue?

the fact that you didnt and in fact had no problems which everyone doing it before is just the reason you shouldnt make first time offenders take capital punishment

Flanker · Post by **Flanker** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:45 pm

Grim,

There was a problem before. There was a hudge explosion that took place over macro's.

We adjusted the clan as a result of that.

We stopped macro's in dungeon, and tried to limit the effect UCM had on other people.

You dont always realize the full effect of certain situations until time pass.

Time has passed and in hind site it would have been a better thing to do. But we didnt.

This does not mean we can't move forward and grow from our experiences.

And that is just what we are going to do. We are moving forward.

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:01 pm

We had a No UCM policy before Turbine did.

grimly fiendish · Post by **grimly fiendish** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:17 pm

im just trying to voice the other side a bit
and show how all this might look to some other ppl in the hopes that you might not be as harsh with them

ill stop posting on this thread now as all i can do is rehash what ive already said and i dont want to create any hard feelings

though one thing i think some ppl are looking for here is an open dialog instead of a restatement of policy

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:59 am

Where to start? A lot of peeps have misunderstood what I have said, and have found in necessary to add some definations to what was said. So I'll try explain. Here goes.

"Flanker" Perhaps the macro's that you ran into on one of your nights out was just a group of people doing it their once or twice a week. But it still made you mad and upset that its was effecting your game play

I never get mad at a game. NEVER. I admit, I've reported (ONE) macroer. Simply because he was a dink. Not solely because he/she was afk. And from what I read, and could understand, you seem to want to send something back to me, (in my face if you will) I'm not taking back what I said about, the twice a week thingy. I meant it.

You stated you didnt want to be repremanded for cursing at the mansion. What about the 11 year old who cant play anymore because his/her parents saw the language that was crossing the screen. True you can not midigate all the bads of the world, but when people come to the clan mansion, our the home of the LD, they should be able to do so without having their young ears burning.

The game box CLEARLY reads "TEEN" Content rated by ESRB. SO that 11year old child, that probably only plays on week ends, etc etc The parents should have never bought him the game.

Its all a matter of taking other people into consideration. WHen you UCM your not doing that, you have blatent disregard for other people. If you are ACM then you have control and can adjust the program running to ensure that you do not adversly effect some one else in a negative manner.

Its always such a one sided story. But again, its such a losing battle from the get go. Why do we even begin with these chats. (I'll explain as you read on)

So you want us to turn the blind eye, forget cursing at the mansion, where is the line drawn?

Respect is something earned, not demanded upon. A lot of people take this WAY too seriously, and I really feel pitty for ya.

"panzerfaust" When I say integrity, i'm talking about the infrastructure of the chain. Making sure that it doesn't fall apart from a break and affect many more than it should

My apologies to you Panzerfaust. I misunderstood what you meant.

"Trekman" Don't let the fact that you are a personal friend of Drag cloud your eyes.
It honors you that you try to defend a friend, but please keep rational and heed the facts. Rules are rules are rules, and you cannot demand to ignore them just because you happen to know an involved person in RL.
Because where would that lead to ? "Wait, I know XXX personally, lets not enforce the chain quota rule on him" or "Uhm - my friend did steal someone else's armor with the trade-window trick ? You have to understand, he just needed that armor" ????

My beef is not in his actions. I never once asked there be a blind eye turned. Not once. I really believe in do the crime, do the time. Make no mistake about it. My beef is with the way it was handled.

How can I interpret this ? "being never at the keyboard" is the ultimate definition of UCM. Therefore you actually assume that Drag was *never at the keyboard*, hence you take it as granted that Drag *really* was UCMing ?

Hey, Lets face it, people can lie to themselves, and to everybody else about it. If someone stands infront of you, for 10 minutes, and sends you several different @ tells when your just standing there, looting, or just standing at attention......Blah blah. But is it at a point that I have to say hello to EVERYBODY that shows up in my radar with a white square? (No, its not, Iknow that, you know that. I'm trying to make a point) What happens in the one instance, to the person doing the reporting, and the powers that be show up, and this person is actually at the keys, just not typing..........ACM, but reading a book, and sees "admins" name. Responds to them.........What happens to the RAT? Nothing I guess. Some people in this monarchy love to do nothing else but look for UCMers, and rat them out. Thats just wrong. (in my book) "Live and Let Live"

If Drag is your RL buddy, talk to him. Tell him that UCM is not a peccadillo (not even for "just a bit salvage") and the clan's stance towards it is not something minor to be ignored.
If he made a mistake by misjudging a situation or the use of a plugin it would cost him more to act pouting and childish than to stand for it. Tell him to work out a solution with Panz and the HC (who are all reasonable people as long as they are not "made a monkey out of").

That has to be the most rediculous thign I've ever heard!!! Trek, I heard rumors of your rants, I've read a lot, but I never thought you'd say something so ludicrous before in my life. Why in the WORLD would I call my bud up, and Give him a sermon about a freaking game?? He's a big boy, and can make his own decisions in life. For god sakes, he never abused small children, or anything like that.

As for your infer on making Panz and HC to be made a monkey out of........they do a fine job on their own. They dont' need me to help em out.

My beef is not with Drak afking. If he was, he was. I KNOW HE WAS. I dont' know why he denied it, and I won't ask him. Its not important. My beef was that he wasn't PM'd about it (via the boards) For expamle. I know Kazsam. I NEVER see Kaz. NEVER. Cause she/he lives over seas. We are on different time zones. So the only way for me to contact her, and that I'll know she'll get my message (I think she's a she..........Sorry mate if I'm wrong) IS if I PM her.

I remember reading somewhere, that if you get caught UCMing, you'll be forwarned by Panzerfaust. To stop doing it. (please) if you break the law again, YOU'RE OUT.

LOVELY. I hope Panz, and the HC, and the chain mangers, and whoever else helps out behind the scenes doesn't get hurt buy this thread. I appreciate everything they do. But like a lot of peeps, I will try to respectfully agree, to disagree. Nothing more. As for swearing, Most people know me, and I'm not a big curser. I have let out a few wacks, one time (that I know of ) at the mansion.........(my bad) but everybody makes mistakes. And I'd like to think, that I'm able to say when I have, and appologize about it. Opinions are like a-holes. (everybody's got one) and this is just mine. I don't deny that Drak was doing the dirty deed. I'm just disapointed with the way it was handled.

Thorgrim

Live and Let Live