Why is the Casual Chain under Dezayn and not the lowest 126?

[Lagmatic]

Well, lets bring the casual chain admins over and see what they think!

[Dezayn]

Hi All!

A few comments on this just to fill you in on some background to this discussion:

We hashed this out on the CC Managers Board two months ago. At some points it was kinda ugly. I hope not to repeat that here. I will post to this thread, though, posts from those discussions so you all can get a feeling of what was discussed. None of the things mentioned on this thread our new. Of anyone, Lagmatic should be well aware of this fact, as he was a member of the HC when the Casual Chain became public, and the HC approved this.

I will post to this thread a bio of the CC to answer some of the questions in here. I will later post the issues we discussed concerning this matter, and the various replies from the CC Managers and HC members.

[Dezayn]

History of the Casual Chain

1. How We Started

Well, I was hunting one day at the Citadel (long before joining LD) and someone asked me to help him with a corpse recovery. So I helped him out. We started hunting together, and next thing I know, he asked if I would be his patron. I said sure!

Not long after, I met a new person in the Citadel, who also needed help recovering a corpse. A few days later his patron quit the game, so I offered to be his patron. Instead of swearing him to myself, I swore him to my vassal, creating a mini-chain. That character was Martin of Crydee, who you may better know as Lich King.

Then I created a new toon and swore him to Martin, and leveled him like crazy. Then Martin created a new toon (Lich King) and stuck him at the bottom of the chain. After I got my second toon to level 55, I started a third toon (Dezayn), who I swore at the bottom of the chain. Then Lich’s brother started playing (Wimp Low), who was then at the bottom. Then we had a few more additions to the bottom, picking up a couple of new players, and Lich, Wimp, and myself all had 5 toons each in the chain. Before I knew it, we had over 30 toons in the chain. We created an MSN group forum webpage, and further organized our actions there. I then asked Lich King and Wimp Low to be my assistant managers.

All my “vassalsâ€￾ I have worked very hard for are in the Casual Chain. The Casual chain was formed because I decided to chain my vassals so that we could maximize xp output, and everyone shared in the wealth. Many of the stalwart members are my personal recruits, who otherwise would have been my vassals. The only difference is that I have not lost many of them because I put them into a situation where they could benefit from others, as I was always looking for new vassals to put under them. I have spent hundreds of hours hunting and questing with my “vassalsâ€￾. I never called them vassals...I call them teammates. This chain was not placed under me....I earned the trust and respect of those who were willing to serve under me.

2. Joining LD

The “chainâ€￾ was originally created under my toon Thelmic. Thelmic’s patron, Jack, decided to swear to his patron’s (Tse-Shaman who was in Abie’s Family) other toon, Tse-Chao. Tse-Chao was a member of the Chain of Pain. Our private chain was now in Last Dynasty, and directly tied to the predecessor of the Food Chain.

3. Dezayn Joining the Food chain

My patron had suggested that instead of someone who was not “involvedâ€￾ with our chain getting the benefit of being in both chains, that I should apply for the Food Chain. At that time, my toon Thelmic was still at the top of our chain, but he was a mule, and I didn’t want to place him in the FC. Dezayn was my “mainâ€￾ toon, but I had him sworn under Lich King to help Lich level…but Dez was the highest-level toon in the chain by far. So, I discussed the move with Lich and Wimp, and they both agreed, so we did a few moves, put Dezayn at the top of our chain, then applied for the FC.

4. Going Public with the Casual Chain

The chain was well established before we came to LD. We offered to open our chain to LD members so that they could benefit from the efficiency of a chain structure without having to worry about a quota. There is no reason why someone who cannot qualify to be in the FC should be denied being in an LD chain. Everyone in LD counts, and I know the HC feels this too. But I know there are others who think that LD is all about the Food Chain. Being part of the CC allows them to feel part of something greater, helps them get a little extra xp, and helps bridge the gap between the Food Chain and the non-chainers.

LD did not approach me and ask me to become a chain manager. Instead I came to Zataki and explained that I have a well-established chain that serves a unique purpose and would help those who were in the clan but could not qualify for the Food Chain. Zataki did not make me chain manager, my followers did. Zataki did not pick my assistant managers, I did. The only thing that changed was that we were given a public forum on the LD boards. We were promised that as long as we followed the LD CoC, and that we sought to help the Clan, I was free to run the chain and choose my managers as I saw fit.

I knew that the Casual Chain would not compete with the Food Chain, for our philosophies and requirements were different. Not only do we offer a chain for those who cannot meet FC requirements, we also offer FC members a chain in which to play their third, fourth, and even fifth toon, as long as they met our “activenessâ€￾ criteria.

These are the benefits we offer to the clan:

Anyone who is in the FC, but can no longer make quota, but still plan on playing, are welcomed to join the CC. Without the CC, they would not have that option.

You are not allowed to have more than two toons in the FC. We welcome any FC members third, fourth, and fifth characters into the CC as long as they meet our active participation requirement.

Anyone of any level can join the CC. Up till recently, we had a good number of toons in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's etc. Right now, we are waning in the lower levels and hence my desire to recruit. But before, you could place a toon of any level in our chain and that toon would receive xp. The FC has traditionally had very few members under level 70.

We do not have an xp quota. We just ask that people not stick their toon in the CC and then we never see them again. We are happy to have anyone go to the FC if they can make the xp requirement...they would be stupid not to. We have only sought those who the FC didn't want or could not help.

[Kythden]

Greed, that is the only reason I can think that this post was even started.

Get over it, the food chain pumps enough xp, you don't need the CC to add to that.

I love the comment about "swear it to the lowest level 126 to help them out" last time I checked there where plenty of toons under level 126, I do not see but ONE post suggesting that the chain be put at the bottom to help EVERYONE, just the 126ers, I know not everyone is completely xp greedy. But this post is shameful, it is Dezayan's chain, with many of his FRIENDS in it, it is not meant to feed your xp (the 126's who view it as another way to satisfy their greed.) weather it is official or not.

I am not trying to flame any one here, but I think the whining in the food chain is getting out of hand, and I only hear it from people WHO HAVE ALREADY REACHED THE HIGHEST LEVEL YOU CAN ACHIVE IN THE GAME!!!!!!!

Oof, smack me if I get like that when I make 126. Love LD, the chain was great, at the bottom.

[Lagmatic]

I knew that the Casual Chain would not compete with the Food Chain, for our philosophies and requirements were different. Not only do we offer a chain for those who cannot meet FC requirements, we also offer FC members a chain in which to play their third, fourth, and even fifth toon, as long as they met our “activeness” criteria.

The problem is, right now, nobody is allowed to compete by creating another clan-based instead of Dezayn-based casual chain.

You see where we're headed?

Dez, why would you be against moving the CC to under the lowest 126?

[DL]

I would never expect Dez to give up his vassals....and I certainly was not even thinking in the lines of greed when I said it might be a good idea...I was merely thinking if this is the only OFFICIAL Casual chain allowed then it should not belong to any one sole person. No offense Dez.

I myself had a nice idea about a new lv 126 chain with a bit of a twist...and by no means greed driven but a means for everyone to share..my idea was once a certain lv is attained you move to the bottom and let the next person reach that level..they then move to the bottom and the next one levels...so on and so on...so all those who sit at the top eventually return to the bottom and work their way back to the top again...a recycle chain....one the constantly gives back what it receives.

Anyways....that was my reasoning and 2 cents and by no means is it or was it intended to be greed driven.

[SMT]

I think it should remain separate, but also feel a re-roll chain would be a good idea if one wanted to start it, with thier own rules. nothing wrong with offering different choices for our members

[Dezayn]

Here are excerpts from I post I wrote on this subject a couple months ago:

Here is how I understand things to shake out:

People in the FC were complaining about Dezayn being in two chains.

1. This is not fair because Dezayn does not have to hunt to make FC quota.

2. This is not fair because if Dezayn gets to have "his" own chain, why can't I?

3. This is not fair because I can never advance past Dezayn in the FC.

4. This is not fair because I'm above Dez and I cannot make 100% pass up.

Then, there is another "problem" not directly tied to the CC, but the CC is seen as a solution to the problem: The level 126ers are complacent and do not want to hunt as much, so we need to give them more xp?

Are these basically the issues we are dealing with?
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Problem 1: If I personally earn my FC quota, then Problem 1 is moot.

Problem 2: I think ths a legitimate concern. But at the same time I would carefully explain to those complainers that the clan has two chains and each chain meets completely different needs, and there is no need for any more chains, lest it be to the greater detriment of the clan.

Problem 3: On one hand a legitimate excuse, and on the other hand complete nonsense. First, I have heard that excuse many times when a non-macroer had a macroer above them. Second, so what if they cannot pass? Its not a right, its a privilege. There are plenty of people who cannot pass their patrons for various reasons. Passing your patron should be a rare occasion if people are doing what they should be in the FC. Perhaps most importantly, I have never passed my patron in the FC. So, with the gobs of xp I am supposedly making, if I can't pass my patron, why should someone expect to pass me.

Problem 4: The quota for the FC is 100% pass-up, with a cap of approximately 6 mil per week. Frankly, if you are above me and cannot make 6 mil per week, then that person shouldn't be in the FC. And if you look at the FC AC Stats page, there are several people who are adding more xp to the chain each week than Dezayn is.

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As I see it, the problem is with those who complain, not the CC, not its managers, and not myself. The solutions presented do not solve all the problems. No matter where Dez goes in the FC, all 4 "problems" still exist and you will get the same complaints. It solves nothing in the complaint department.

As far as placing Dezayn at the bottom of level 126ers to give the complacent higher-ups more xp? Why should the HC give them deferential treatment? You don't think that MORE of the lower levels in the FC will complain about that?

Granted, I would probably get more xp from the FC down there. But that is not what this is about, nor should this be about getting more xp for more people in the FC. I think that is degrading to the CC, and just proves it is only seen as an appendage to the FC.

I still think the fairest solution is to have Dez swear directly to Panzerfaust. That would immediately remove Problems 1, 3, and 4 for you, and most likely problem 2. Dez would be out of the FC, but so what! I would still be in the CC, and that is where I belong. It is not about the XP folks, and it is not about me. It has never been, and never will be. That is why "my" guys are so loyal...we have always gone by the "all for one and one for all" motto. What this is about is the CC given its proper place, respect, and recognition in LD.

[Lagmatic]

So I am allowed to start my own casual chain then? Cool.

Expect my posts on this soon.

[Dezayn]

Lagmatic,

What is your problem? Before you left AC, I never heard you complain about Dez's position in the FC....but could this be due to the fact that I was only a couple spots below you?

Why did you not make these complaints when you were on the High Council?

Go start your chain....go post to your hearts content....you know where it will lead...LD has been down this path before. It only creates contention and disharmony.

As far as I am personally concerned, I could care less if everyone had their own chains. But I have to worry about the other toons in the CC, and the loss in xp they will receive if such competition was allowed. Then again, maybe the likes of Panzerfaust, Trekman, and Lucky Strike will not care if their toons in CC start receiving less xp due to your new chain.

[Dezayn]

There is already a solution to this problem...but I think everyone else who were involved with the original discussion forgot about the solution. I think the solution is a good compromise...but I am not going to disclose the compromise at this point because I want to continue this discussion. I want people to be aware of a couple points so you may understand WHY this is a compromise, and that you may better understand the clan and chain dynamics.

First the CC is an official chain. If I were to leave AC, I believe the CC would continue and prosper. On the other hand, if I decided to leave the clan, the CC would cease to exist, as most of the more active members of the chain are loyal to me as I am to them. This is not a threat, just the simple truth....also, I have no intentions of leaving LD. I am just as loyal to the clan as I am to the CC members.

"Official" can have many meanings....so what does it mean to be an "official LD" chain? Well, in our case, it does not mean that it was created by LD. It does mean that we represent LD, as all clan members do, and we were given a forum to conduct our business. We opened our doors to the rest of LD, inviting them to join our chain with any of their active toons who could not join the food chain. Above all, we are a chain of rerolls and trade mules. Why start another reroll chain when there is already one that exists in the clan, and runs extremely well?

The one thing in this current discussion, or the previous debate we had on our managers board, that really irritates me is this notion that the Casual Chain must be a feeder chain to the Food Chain. The Casual Chain is not subservient to the Food Chain....it is not a part of the Food Chain...it just happens to tie into the Food Chain. Why not reverse the situation, and have the top member in the FC swear to the lowest level 126+ in the Casual Chain? What would be so wrong with this?

All the Casual Chain managers agreed that the fairest thing to do would be to separate the chains completely...which would mean swearing Dezayn to Panzerfaust. Ultimately, we decided on another course of action....still to be implemented....but should happen in the near future...

On a personal level, the other thing that gets me is people are complaining that I am in two chains. Well, moving the chain somewhere else in the FC would just make someone else be in both chains. The difference I see is this....the requirement for me being in the Food Chain is that I pass-up 6 million non-chain xp into the food chain. I do this every week. Sure, the CC passes up plenty of xp to me each week to pass quota. Is this any less fair than other members of the FC who have vassals who pass up lots of xp? And I know there are members in the FC whose vassals pass up more xp to them than I get from the CC. Should we move them to the bottom the 126ers?

The answer is no....they have earned that pass-up xp from their vassals for what they do for their vassals. Likewise, I feel I have earned every xp point the Casual Chain passes up to me...

Is it unfair that I get to have an official chain under me to support my Food Chain habits, while no one else can? All depends on your point of view. But moving Dez and the CC to a different position in the FC, does not change any potential unfairness. All it does is move it to a place where less people will complain, by virtue of the fact that more people will enjoy the xp the CC passes up.

Another option is to let anyone else have an official chain under them. Any such chains, however, will compete either with the FC or the CC. LD has learned from experience that this is not a wise course of action.

Another option is to do away with the CC and return the clan to a single chain. We ran a private chain before, and we can do it again...and this would minimally affect the xp Dez receives. However, it would remove the option of a non-quota chain from other LD members. Being an "official" chain has helped the clan much more than it has helped our chain....for a fact the % of xp-pass-up has fallen since we have gone public....but we have helped a lot more players level their rerolls and mules.

Anyway, I present these thoughts for a purely academic pursuit. A compromise has already been worked out, but people will still complain...they always do. Some complaints can be alleviated through reason...others were just born to complain.

As far as I am concerned, I want to do what is going to help the Clan as a whole the most. Giving a few more level 126ers in the FC a few more million xp a week is pretty low on the list of things that will help boost the clan. It just makes a few more people happy.

[Lagmatic]

Lagmatic,

What is your problem? Before you left AC, I never heard you complain about Dez's position in the FC....but could this be due to the fact that I was only a couple spots below you?

Why did you not make these complaints when you were on the High Council?

Go start your chain....go post to your hearts content....you know where it will lead...LD has been down this path before. It only creates contention and disharmony.

As far as I am personally concerned, I could care less if everyone had their own chains. But I have to worry about the other toons in the CC, and the loss in xp they will receive if such competition was allowed. Then again, maybe the likes of Panzerfaust, Trekman, and Lucky Strike will not care if their toons in CC start receiving less xp due to your new chain.

I don't have a problem. Somebody asked me this. I posted. At no point did I attack or aim anything at you.

See my original post:

Somebody asked me this and I think its a good question.

Seems a much better place for it would be down low where it can help the most people.

Comments?

However, you just took the time to insinuate something about me. I'm not going to sink and reply to it though.

Why didn't I make any complaints about this when I was on the HC? Because at the time, nobody complained to me. I'm not on the HC here now. Nor am I a chain manager, and privy to your secret discussions, so I didn't sneak up and post a contentious issue. I merely brought up something for discussion something that those of us who are NOT chain admins didn't know had previously been discussed.

Then again, maybe the likes of Panzerfaust, Trekman, and Lucky Strike [snip]

I think these people are above that, don't you?

I'm going to terminate discussing this until it can be done without insults.

Good day to you sir.

[Lagmatic]

I can appreciate that you are feeling defensive. You're in a very sweet position, it is natural to want to keep it, but you have to understand that other people are directly envious of you.

They see your position at the top of the CC, PLUS being in the FC as ideal. And it seems to be one that nobody has any chance of ever sharing. Those wanting that position shared among a larger group is neither greedy nor spiteful.

The reason people came to me about this is because they didn't want to take the flak that I am taking now. But, I have teflon undies. =)

As a side note, could you please care to explain how I am greedy for wanting to start a feeder chain under the lowest 126, considering I am 21 positions above it, which calculates that I will receive 0.004% (rounded) additional XP.

[Oof]

Lagmatic posted:

So I am allowed to start my own casual chain then? Cool.

Expect my posts on this soon.

This is not an attack on Lagmatic at all, but my feelings on the quote. Of course people can start their own mini-chains; it's called having vassals.

No one should post they are starting a new chain in LD without getting Panzerfaust's approval first. The Casual Chain was started under Zataki, after Zataki said yes. LD currently has two chains, one without a quota requirement, and one that has a quota requirement of 100% with a 6 million XP per week cap. Those two chains currently meet the XP chain needs of LD. The question running in this thread is where should the Casual Chain's XP merge with that of the Food Chain, if it is to merge at all.

Forming an additional casual chain without Panzerfaust's permission would be frowned upon, at least by me. I'd have to go red, and then you'd die laughing at all of my corpses, and then you'd be sorry.

[Lagmatic]

Oof:

That was my point, that despite arguments to the contrary, it isn't allowed.