UCMs

[Dumoss]

Guidelines:

1. Don't macro Dungeons that are frequented by players for the purpose of hunting.

2. ELTank is NOT for Unattended use. Unattended use is officially against the CoC and we will not be held liable if you get banned from Asheron's Call due to violating this CoC

3. If you think your actions will have a detrimental affect to someone's playing pleasure, don't do it.

[Lagmatic]

This is one of those examples of following the letter of the law vs. following the intent of the law. I may have said this before, but even if I did, it bears repeating: A little common sense goes a long way.

The game CoC says UCM is banned, punishable by a permanent ban from the game. That being said, their INTENT for the ban is to stop people from inhibiting the game play of other players. Ken Karl stated in a post some time back that they knew they would not stop all UCM activity nor were they interested in doing so. He went on to say their goal was to stop or minimize as much as possible UCM'ing in areas that cause problems for other players. He also stated that he basically didn't care if someone UCMs in an area away where it wouldn't bother anyone. Essentially, if you want to UCM and do so in such a way so that no one reports you, Turbine/Microsoft isn't going to make a big deal about it.

The clan's CoC says much the same thing, for much the same reasons, with one exception. Our CoC specifically prohibits combat macroing in dungeons, unattended or attended. Again, the INTENT for this is to avoid impacting other player's gameplay in a negative way. Panzer has stately clearly that since you can't really control which creatures are targeted when you are macroing, combat macros aren't allowed in dungeons. True, you can set the range to 5 on tank and minimize a lot of that, but sometimes people forget to do that. In a group of people as large as LD is, it simply won't work to say "you can't macro in a dungeon if... but you CAN macro in a dungeon if you... If our CoC stated you can combat macro in a dungeon as long as it doesn't bother anyone else, we would probably be discussing what is meant by bothering someone else forever. So the rule is no combat macroing, not because to do so would automatically hurt someone else's gameplay, but because people sometimes tend to be stupid. Therefore the rules have to be blanket rules in order to cover the bases.

If you are hunting in a mixed dungeon with some melee friends and run tank in a vuln only, you aren't combat macroing because you aren't killing, therefore you can't be stealing someone else's kills. If you are in a dungeon alone and choose to combat macro, no one is there to see you, or to be affected by your gameplay; therefore, you aren't impacting anyone else's gameplay and the INTENT of the rule is still being honored. Of course, if you are UCM, you can't stop as soon as someone else enters the dungeon, and are consequently liable to be reported to a game admin for UCM activity. If you are in a dungeon only LD members and they are in your fellow, you won't negatively impact of people's gameplay, etc., etc.

This is my take on the rules, certainly not an official statement from the high council, since I aren't one. But folks, if it's a choice of getting hung up on semantics versus trying to take a practical approach to honoring the intent of our rules, I would choose a practicial approach every time. It isn't quite a don't ask, don't tell policy; it is more a don't do anything to cause other people grief and you'll be okay policy.

P.S. If people were to leave because they didn't like the CoC, I for one would still stay in LD.

So now you can UCM in LD, as long as you're not bothering anybody?

[Phade]

Lagmatic.. why are you always trying to stir up trouble?

[SMT]

I think we should allow people to play the game the way they want to, its thier money they are spending every month, period.

[Khaz-Modaan]

But when they join this guild, they agree to abide by the rules. It's as simple as that. If you're in your own guild, you don't need to follow anyone's rules but the ones that you set.

Oh, and by the way - if anyone takes as extreme a stand as Lucky has, please make sure to find out who your High Council members are.

[Mickie]

Cattle Scat

LOL!
Never though of it that way.

2 instances of report vs not.

1> Single user (me) in a non-populated dungeon where not another soul has stepped foot for days (except for the user that showed it to me). 2 mil/hr. Report? of course. Im sorry I macroed here. I learned my lesson. I am an evil evil person.
2> High Traffic Tusker Dungeon, 9 peeps afk. 13 Mil/hr. Thats an entire fellow, owning the tusker holding dungeon ucm'img. I threaten to report becasue I CANT HUNT HERE and a monarchy member tells me (yes he shall remain nameless) "Dont like it, Dont hunt here".

If I macro an uninhabited dungeon, i get reported, i get my hand slapped. If i even THINK about reporting a high traffic macro thats affecting my gameplay Im a "f&%$ing noob", and have to go hunt somewhere else?WTF is wrong with you people?


Speaking of Cattle Scat...

[Pee-Wee]

-
I have listened to both sides, and voiced some of my own views.

After carefull examination of the facts, I can come to only one conclusion.

I think Paul Newman expressed it the best, in the greatest movie ever made "Cool Hand Luke".

Click on the pick.



- Edit / Insert -

Sorry Oof, I just had to.

[Seabrook]

Pee Wee,

You are missing the point. I should not have to say hello. Period. I should not have to prove that I am at keyboard. Period.

As far a your melee character getting steal kills from a ACM'er. I am guessing the the ACM'er was there first - so to bad. Go somewhere else. If you were there first I can see you getting pissed off. But what did the person do? Run up to you and a MOB and turn on eltank? Hmmmm.

I cannot tell you how many times a melee has run up beside me, because they are almost dead, stands beside me, heals, then starts killing my vulns. Do I say hello? Not a chance. Do I get pissed? No, I just go to war only. They move on.

Sad thread, reminds me of the old days in LD when 80% of you that are complaining were not even in LD.

Now it's the ACM'ers. LoL, funny as hell. What AC needs to ban is decal. That will end it. Also ban buff bots, hmmm, no more level 70 melee waiting in line in front of my level 22 reroll.

That is the anwer, just ban it all........

[Pee-Wee]

-
As I said, I will defend your ACMing ANYWHERE, as long as it's not going to be stealing kills.

I should not have to say hello. Period. I should not have to prove that I am at keyboard. Period.

Umm... eventually you will, otherwise you will find your name on the banned UCM list. So, why initiate a confrontation? Just say "Hello" and be on with it. Why get so upset about it?

Sure, you are ABSOLUTLY correct... you don't HAVE to, but, in the end, the only person you are pissing off, obviously, is yourself.

As for whoever "Gets there first", that has nothing to do with it. As soon as you vuln a monster I am fighting, it will immediatly break from me and run to the person who vulned it, even if they are 2 rooms away. Maybe you mages don't understand that fact. It is VERY irritating.

This is the reason I don't hunt in AL anymore, and, it's the same reason LD has put it in the CoC.

Macroers simply can't/don't/won't controll their indiscriminate (CONSTANT) kill stealing.

[Pee-Wee]

Tell ya' what.

One day, run with me to the dungeon a level below the Assailer dungeon, the one with the big stone heads...

And, I'll let you watch as the monkey I am beating on, drags my ass all over the dispell traps while the AC/UC Macroers vuln them.

I can light up the whole dungeon with nice pink and light blue fluffy lights.

Then tell me how fair it is to AC/UCM there.

[Podunkmer]

<snip> And, I'll let you watch as the monkey I am beating on, drags my ass all over the dispell traps while the AC/UC Macroers vuln them.

I can light up the whole dungeon with nice pink and light blue fluffy lights.

Then tell me how fair it is to AC/UCM there.

The thing is, a non-macro could do that to you just as well. ACM, UCM, non-macro, they all have the potential to cause grief like that. In all three cases, there would be no grief if nobody but the "vulner" were there.

So I see it as a preventetive ban in the LD CoC. There exists the potential for grief to result from someone running an ACM in a dungeon. Therefore it is not allowed. While I agree that there is a lot chance potential for grief with a UCM than a ACM, and higher with a ACM than a non-macro, there are plenty of other situations I could come up with that are equally or more prone to griefing, but are not disallowed by the LD CoC.

Fighting in BSD, hunting in Lacuna/Honeycombs/Tunnels, looting in PK, being PK at all, doing an Olthoi Queen quest, running a plat macro, running a LD-only fellowship in a crowded hunting area like AL or VoD, not sharing loot in VoD, just to name some. Is LD going to preventatively ban everything that might result in other players being inconvenienced?

[Lagmatic]

Phade, that isn't stirring up trouble, its a legit question.

I thought what panzer wrote was pretty clear, but I think what oof wrote contradicted it.

[Lagmatic]

Seabrook makes a very good point. If he doesn't want to respond to everybody and his brother, he has a right not to.

We should make a clear list of people who you HAVE to always reply to, if those people are going to be doing Macro checks.

[Trekman]

Wasn't this whole discussion in many clans and on VNBoards done a year ago ? And then 6 months ago ?
And what was the result a year ago ? And then 6 months ago ?

The same as here - NONE.

Just for Lucky's statistics about the posters : I am old-school melee without Life Magic, without ElTank and without Life Tank and without ACTool.

And maybe its because I am only a simple axer - but I do not understand what is so difficult :

- CoCs are to be respected - both the game's and the clan's.
Clan CoC may be subject to discussion and adaption by the HC, the game CoC is not.
If someone doesn't agree with a CoC, (s)he ought to take consequences by leaving clan or game. Or (s)he must not be surprised about the (occasional ?) forced consequences.

- Intentional kill-stealing is not only impolite, it also damages reputation and therefore might have more negative implications than the gain of a few additional XP is worth. Occasional kill-stealing might happen due to Sticky Attack or lag.

- general Grief Playing (whose exact definition I did not find anywhere yet) is unwanted too, regardless whether by a life player or an ACM.

My personal experience is though, that life players are more flexible or at least quicker in responding to a changing situation (like other players appearing in radar) than a plugin.
So my guess is that an ACMer might not be griefing/kill-stealing intentionally, but might be too slow to stop the plugin from doing it.

I agree that nobody can be forced to talk to "everyone", and I definitely do not answer to "everyone" (at least not immediately) - not because of a lack of courtesy, but because of the given priorities at the moment.

But in my opinion an +Admin is not "everyone", so I would try hard to answer an +Admin as quickly as possible. I guess that ElTank users would answer to ElTank Admins too.
In this respect I agree to Lagmatic, that it might be appropriate to assign sort of "LD - +Admins" who can count on being answered a.s.a.p.
What about assigning the chain managers in addition to Panz ?

(edited due to typos)

[Trekman]

I think we should allow people to play the game the way they want to, its thier money they are spending every month, period.

Totally correct. So if I UCM or ACM or life-play or/and am levels above you and decide to steal your kills or spoil your playing experience because I pay MY money - would you be happy for me that I got fun for my money ?

You see - this is not really a target-oriented argumentation

Besides that - I almost would be interested in a truthful poll who REALLY is paying THEIR own money and not that of the parents...especially among those "go red you n00b" VNBoard trolls....