MY Level 100 post (The Novel)

Culticon · Post by **Culticon** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:22 pm

he has to catch Phade to get his title back I am disappointed hehe

Tynerion · Post by **Tynerion** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:06 pm

First of all PW, I congratulate you on reaching 100. I know what you have put into this game and you deserve to feel proud of the accomplishment. And I clap freely and sincerely to that.

I'm sorry that the reference to playing this game the "old fashioned way" has caused such an issue with you. It was never intended that way. Since I was the one that last used this term in congratulating Sassy on reaching 100, I can't help but take your post here a little personally.

I would like to make something perfectly understood, and I hope that those of you who have joined in on the bashing here of people who use that term will kindly take the time to understand what was meant when I said "the old fashioned way".

Firstly, if you believe that it was intended to be an attempt to "to discredit the levels attained by use of chain", you are "tilting at windmills", at least from my standpoint. I do not begrudge ANYONE their levels regardless of how they were attained. And if I get the opportunity, I will be first to offer the congratulations. There is no hidden "class envy" situation with me regardless of what light you put it in.

When I say someone leveled the "old fashioned way", I do not intone that they did it the "BETTER or WORSE" way than anybody else. I know the state of affairs on AC and how it has become a game full of veterans with fewer and fewer noobs in attendance. However, there are a few people (and I mean few) that have made a decision to play this game in a certain way for their own purposes. And this post has basically said that those who have made this choice are in essence, stupid.

The difference between these people and the high percentage of this clan that are in chains, it that where leveling and gaining xp are important, they are not held so highly as other things. And this again, is not better.. or worse... it just IS!

The "old fashioned way" (to me), is playing the game as closely to the original design as possible. If I remember correctly, the box that my game came in does not say "and you can join XP chains to gain levels real quick!". However, Turbine did set in place a method to gain xp from vassles. And as an artist spends the time and investment writing and recording a song, my investment is in vassles. And as that artist receives ongoing return on that song regardless of whether he sings again, The patron receives xp after the bulk of the work is done as well. It is not slavery. It is not the expectation that they be an "xp Bi-ch" as you say. It is in my case, a way to create bonds of friendship and a method of developing leadership within oneself.

From the beginning of this game, I have had two patrons for my main Tynerion. And the only reason for two, was that my original patron Ishamael left the game. I do not begrudge ONE BIT of the one Billion + xp that I gave to him while he was here. You might say that all that xp was wasted, but you know what? It was worth every kill and death to have been able to develop a friendship with a great man. You see, in my opinion, playing the game for the relationship aspect is more important to me than XP. I would gladly give all the xp i have ever earned from a vassle to keep people like Ishamael around me if I could. To me, this is what I consider to be playing the game "the old fashioned way".

Now, I need to make sure everyone knows, that I am NOT AGAINST CHAINS! I personally think that chains are a PERFECT way to attain higher levels quickly to enjoy the higher content of this game faster. Chains also include building of relationships, nor do I consider them a detriment. They are run well in this clan and I have the same respect for anyone in a chain that I do for those that are not.

What chains are, are a managed way to take advantage of this games Patron/Vassle relationships. The reason for the chain runs entirely around XP. If that is the way you want to play, then I'll be first to be the one to show you the link where you can sign up. But it is NOT the way I want to play. I'm sorry if you think that is not "smart", but it is my choice and I intend to keep playing it that way regardless of the fact that people consider me to be stupid.

You will no doubt agree that playing outside of a chain means that I will not grow as fast, and will have to work harder to attain levels. I have absolutley no problem with that. But why must it irk you so badly when someone congratulates me for doing it that way? Why must it be a direct attack against you simply because you are in the chain? I just don't get it. We do not say it to belittle those in the chain.. We say it because we who have chosen this path are proud that we made the levels that way. And I believe a special congratulations are in order. I'm sorry if you begrudge us of this.

I have lost many vassles to chains, and though I hated to see it happen, I was glad to see that they were doing what they thought was best for them.

My hope here is not to cause contention with you PW, I have always counted you as my most staunchest friend. And I hope that can continue from your standpoint. But I think that those of us who play the game this way have been unfairly attacked by this post and I hope y'all can take it as it was intended.

Pee-Wee · Post by **Pee-Wee** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:09 pm

Tynerion, I hope you read this.

First, this was not in response to your post on Sassy's Lev 100. The term has been used on several occasions by several people. This post was not pointed at you, however, your "half a brain" comment from Chada's Lev 100 post did strike a nerve.

Now, to address your reply.

First off, the term itself is intended to reflect as if the person attaining the level has done something above and beyond those who chose other ways. In effect, separating and raising yourself above others. (Which, by doing so, you DO belittle others) And, from your post:

We say it because we who have chosen this path are proud that we made the levels that way. And I believe a special congratulations are in order.

You can see where I am coming from.

I hunt, just as hard, if not harder, than most. I help people on a constant basis, including people above me and not even in the chain. I'm just trying to find out what you are doing that causes you to think you deserve "Special" recognition, or, what I AM doing to be considered below you.

From what you say, if you and I were the same level, and today, your vassal and my vassal both passed up exactly 10M xp to us, you still deserve special recognition?

What makes your free XP more special than mine? Is it....

1) Is it the RATE/AMOUNT of XP from passup?

Since people outside of the chain can, and often do, make higher/faster XP from passup, it can't be. However, I don't think you would be using the "Old Fashioned" term if, on average, you were receiving twice as much XP from passup as chain members.

2) Is it the HELP?

Seeing as I help people just as you or anyone else does, I don't see how this can be it.

3) Is it the LENGTH of TIME?

I don't see how helping 52 people a week is any different from helping 1 person for a year. Help is help. Actually, I think helping 52 people is a bit more involved than helping one. In this game, the amount of help tapers off in time, just as you pointed out.

And as that artist receives ongoing return on that song regardless of whether he sings again, The patron receives xp after the bulk of the work is done as well.

I guess, in a way, I DO take it personally when I see people trying to make their actions seem superior to others. (And, I can see you understand what I mean, having seen how my "Smarter" comment has effected you)

My hatred for the term "Old Fashioned" came about LONG ago, back when was earning nearly 80 levels without any passup XP, and I saw people using it to describe level 100 people who DID get passup XP. How is that "Old Fashioned"? Now, that I am on the other side of the coin, I hate it even more, because I see how it is alienating two groups of people. Ones who DON'T have vassals/passup XP, and those in the chain.

Aiwendil · Post by **Aiwendil** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:34 am

HEY!! I read all that, and im not even in the chain!!! LOL, i didnt even know there were people sayying they do it the old fashioned way. well.... if it really will make u mad i gues ill say..................I DID IT THE OLD FASHIONED WAY!!. j/k i understand u needed to get all ur anger out lol

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:23 pm

PW,

no one ever discredited anyone for being a chainer per se.

But, "the old fashion" way is a completely different playing of the game.

BTW: I did read the entire post.

First, there are real noobs. I see them every now and then. You can still purchase AC online, new, in the box.

A quick description of "The Old Fashion" way:

When I say this, I don't mean to discredit chainers. I was one.

Everyone has their reasons for joining a chain. But, it's all about greed.

For me, joining a chain was more out of luck, than need. I was leaving my former clan, of which I was in for all of my previous AC time, except for a couple days. I was looking for a clan that ran quests, I couldn't run alone. At the time, I was running at least one quest every day for that clan. My original patron released me after I had passed him up several times. I ended up swearing to the monarch. Had that not happened, we wouldn't even been having this conversation on these boards. I would still be with my original patron. See, loyalty is important to some of us. He invested ALOT of time, energy, money and armor in me. I wasn't going to dump him after all of that. So, any XP I passed up to him, he earned, the old fashion way. He spent that time and energy on me with no guarantee of a return on investment. He taught me the game, which is a rarity now. He didn't powerlevel me. He showed me where to hunt and when. He showed me what to use and how to use it. He showed me where to buy and where to sell. There's much more to this game than killing "stuff".

BTW: there are lvl 126 noobs out there. I see them all the time. I define a noob as game knowledge and attitude, not in game longevity. How many people over 75 have never been to Aerlinthe, besides to get the scroll? How many over 75 still can't navigate through the eviscerator lair?

So, the old fashion way has merit, in my eyes anyway. I don't look down on anyone that is in the chain. But, if you equate making it to any level in a chain and outside of a chain, the only one you're kidding, is you.

Some people will not join chains. That's fine. It's their decision. Many don't want to leave their patrons. I would have been one of them. My patron just happen to leave me.

Some people will be irritated or worse when a vassal leaves for a chain. You would have to expect that if they invested alot of time, etc. I know, for me, I had gone through literally hundreds of personal vassals. Some quit playing all together. Some moved to RL friends. Some, just disappeared one day. And many after a considerable amount of spent resources. I had a couple vassals leave for other chains after I was in LD. I had taught these guys everything they knew about the game. That was less than fruitful for me.

The vassal/patron relationship is completely different in a chain, because it's just that. I remember when I first got in the chain. A few of my chain vassals didn't want to leave me. Not because of me, but because I had other real, live people in the co vassal channel. There's a kinship built among vassals too. Keater and I had the same original patron. We spent far more time together because we were both noobs and we hunted an awful lot together. There were others, but they Keater is the only one that I still see.

When someone lifts someone up, it doesn't mean they have to bring someone down in the process. It is quite an accomplishment to make it to 100 without a chain. Do the math. That's a ton of XP.

Rathgryn · Post by **Rathgryn** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 3:59 pm

Good post Panz. I just wish i had this kind of perspective on the game. By the time I started this game, almost everything was well known and well established. Even though i didn't have someone holding my hand through a quest, Maggie was there to help with maps and info, and ACmaps.com has gotten me through tons of dungeons.

Buffbots are all over the servers, turing level 5 players into gods, and if you hang out at the obsidian rim lifestone long enough, maybe some level 126s will get you into a vod fellow even though you're level 50 so that you can level twice an hour. The point is, the game has changed, and I never got a chance to be here when everything was new.

The vassal patron relationship has changed because of this. Even if I did go out on a limb to take on a couple of true noob vassals, and start investing time and energy into training them, they will eventually feel, as Pee-Wee puts it, like and xp bi-ch. They will see people around them (chainers) levelling up 2 or 3 times a week when it's been 2 weeks since they levelled and they'll say, "my patron isn't doing his job." All of this has taken, in my opinion, an important dimension from the game.

I really wish i could have been here when this game was new, and everything was challenging, and your level really meant something other than you just camp tusker dungeons alot. The old fashioned way is the way the game was intended to be played, but i've never seen it played that way. It's true, like panz says, that there are plenty of noob level 126s running around that really know nothing about the game, and i've met most of them, but try convincing them to leave their chains.

I will, unfortunately, never get a chance to have a patron train me the old fashioned way and, unfortunately as well, I don't think any vassal will ever be loyal to me like that, and I really don't expect them to at this point in the games life. My joy comes from getting high enough level to go questing (dying) and hunting (dying) with my LD mates, and by testing myself against the toughest creatures in the game.

At this point I see no reason why i should sit at low levels for over a year "being trained" while missing out on by far the best content of the game (80+ content) when the tools exist for me to get there, and I don't think I should expect that of a vassal. The old fashioned way was great, and it produced alot of great players like Panzerfaust and Naka and Youkay (and a ton of others), but it isn't working the same way anymore. The tools to get too big too quick are out there, and I don't see that we can blame anyone for using them, especially when all of the games new content is now directed at high level players. Anyway, thanks if you read all that, and let me know if i'm wrong about this.

Culticon · Post by **Culticon** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:01 pm

Panz is right about the newbs I have recruited 2 in the past month.Both of these guys are fresh and new to the game

Pee-Wee · Post by **Pee-Wee** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:34 pm

Yet again. Nobody is reading the post.

Here it is, again, in a little more direct, and simpler terms. (Because, as we know, my "half a brain" might need to)

By separating people into groups, then stating that they are "Not Equal", You ARE putting down/jabbing one of those groups. This is what you BOTH have done.

(The following is an example, not a jab)

I leveled to 80, without any passup XP. Tynerion, with some help from passup XP, attained nearly all of his levels. This is a true statement, not a jab, or a put down, just fact.

Now, by your standards, Tynerion still deserves special merrit, not because he HELPED people, as I also did, but because those people SWORE to him. And this is what constitutes the "Old Fashioned Way"???

This is EXACTLY what you are saying.

Just as much as I can't begrudge Tynerion because he got passup XP that I didn't get for my 80 levels, he surely can't begrudge me because he is not getting the same passup XP rate I am now.

Panz, even in your post, you have, indirectly jabbed people by separating them and raising one group above the other:

no one ever discredited anyone for being a chainer per se.

"Per se" = "Well, maybe, a little bit"

Everyone has their reasons for joining a chain. But, it's all about greed.

Well, isn't THAT a sweeping generalization.

That's like me saying... I joined the chain, because I didn't spend hours and hours in starter towns, like child molesters with cotton candy, waiting for people to swear to me.

Just as that does not hold true to everyone, neither does the greed argument.

My reasons for joining (Again, not a jab, just a fact): I DID get tired of passing up my XP without any return on MY investment. I DIDN'T get all that wonderfull help that you allude to. Oh, I got help, but not to the point of what you are talking about, where the person helping me could just sit back and rape.... err REAP the rewards of my XP. (I'm, obviously, not the only who has felt this way)

And, since I wasn't a noob, and that there were no people out there to give me any real help other than in CR, that would deserve giving that XP to, and since, at the time, I wanted to stay in LD, I decided to give it to... well... indirectly.. YOU Panz.

So, the old fashion way has merit, in my eyes anyway. I don't look down on anyone that is in the chain. But, if you equate making it to any level in a chain and outside of a chain, the only one you're kidding, is you.

Again, the only way they can't "equate" is if you are referring to passup XP, which is what this argument boils down to. And, if you go back and read my previos post, I can't see how ANYONES FREE XP is superior to mine.

By saying there is a difference, you are putting down and invalidating, NOT ONLY chain members, but the hard work and XP I pass up to you Panz.

Again, if someone, outside of the chain is making 12Mil a night from his vassals vassals va... (you get the picture) how is that not a chain? How is that "The Old Fashioned Way"?

Rathgryn · Post by **Rathgryn** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:47 pm

I think what they mean (and what you know they mean) is that the nature of the vassal patron relationship is not the same in a chain pee-wee. In the end, you and the "old-fashioners" both get xp from passup, so the end result is the same. The distinction is only in the nature of the relationship. I've never gone questing or been taught anything by my chain patron, and i don't expect her to, but if i swore to a patron the "old fashioned way" then I would leave them if they didn't give me significant help. Also, I didn't choose my chain patron, she was assigned to me. This doesn't disqualify anyone in the chain from helping their vassals, but it does give the relationship a different dynamic. I know you help your vassals, you patron, and everyone around you pee-wee, even lamers like me, but if the chain orders told you to break from your current patron and vassal to move up the chain, you would have to, so the relationship generated there is not the same. It's no better or no worse in my opinion, but it is different.

Tynerion · Post by **Tynerion** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:05 pm

As for the "half a brain" remark Pee-Wee, It was not meant seriously. But I apologize for making it as it has caused unintended harm. Sometimes I just don't think about things as much as I should before I speak. And it's gotten me in trouble more than once.

Again, my apologies.

Post by **Panzerfaust** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:13 pm

Pee Wee,

I am reading your post. I'm just not buying in to you justification for being in a chain as opposed to out of one.

Greed is absolutely the entire purpose of a chain. We can sugar coat it hundreds of ways, but in the end, it's to attain XP that one didn't create through his or her own work, but maximizing the leadership/loyalty system turbine set in place as flawed as it might be. Helping vassals is part of the work. I never told any of my vassals they had an XP quota to meet or they couldn't be my vassal anymore. It's not even in the same county as a chain.

As for as putting people in different groups: chainers and non-chainers are in separate groups. It's not a good or a bad thing. It's just fact. I don't make that distinction. The distinction I make is, whether or not someone is just in a chain or are they in the clan. But, most do not. I don't care whether someone is in a chain or not. I care whether or not they are "in" the clan. However, I do think someone who does it the old fashion way deserves more credit than someone who did not, which includes me. Keeb did what I did not. He also had me as a patron (

), which may have had something to do with his playing ability. I am much harder on him than anyone else. Would Keeb have made it to triple digits without me and a chain? Who knows? Now, me, I jumped in the chain and made my quota, and waited. BANG! 100. Special? Not to me it wasn't. I knew the work that I had done was a mere fraction of a fraction to get me there. It was the specially structured system that got me there. All I had to do was exist.

I am not jabbing at anyone. It is the burden you agree to when you join a chain. You essentially agree to some finger pointing. You have agreed that you have decided to disjoin from someone that may or may not have helped you get to a certain point and join another group of greedy xp hounds. It's merely fact. I was in the same place. It didn't bother me that people said "yeah, but you're in a chain". I say "So, you can join too." Why let it bother you?

Now, personally, I never wanted congratulations for leveling while in the chain. I did very little on my way to each level in comparison to the chain. But, that's just me.

Pee-Wee · Post by **Pee-Wee** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:10 pm

I think where we are getting confused here is this:

I am NOT trying to defend my membership in the chain.

I am NOT saying I work any harder than anyone else, however, I am also not sitting on my ass all day long (and I am not saying anyone else is either).

I am NOT saying I don't get XP from the chain.

I am NOT saying it's NOT easier to level off of the chain.

I am NOT saying I deserve any extra "Hoorah".

I am NOT saying the Chain Vassal/Patron dynamic is any better/worse.

What I AM saying, is, to those who never had a vassal or were part of a chain (as I was for 80 levels); Both Tynerion and myself, fall into the SAME category: Those who Leveled off of the work of others. And, for that reason, you DON'T deserve any "Special Recognition".

It is a simple fact, neither Panzer, Pee-Wee, Tynerion, or Ish, would have attained their levels AS QUICKLY had it not been for XP from others. Why is it that we should applaud Tynerion and Ish and cast shadows on the validity of Pee-Wee and Panz?

I'm in NO way trying to "defend" my membership in the chain. I am just trying to knock some people off their high horse who think they deserve special recognition solely BECAUSE there is a chain.